Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[darth_freeman]

Fundamentally wrong.

And even comically absurd.

GO's Lakeshore East corridor runs almost entirely parallel to the 401 here, the answer to alleviating traffic in this corridor is self-evident, 15-minute (or better), all-day GO
Service, lower GO Fares, lower-regional fares for TTC-DRT connections, and more frequent DRT service.

When all of that is done, along w/the Bomanville extension of GO then, and only then, should we revisit the idea of widening the 401, and then, only with great reluctance.

The widening of 401 from Ajax easterly to extend the express/collector system has had the preliminary design work completed for many years now. Here are just a few articles from 2015 describing it, so this is nothing new.

Highway 401 from Brock Road to Courtice Road – Class Environmental Assessment and Preliminary Design Study

www.ajax.ca

Hwy. 401 widening in Ajax well down the road

AJAX -- One of these days, Hwy. 401 in Ajax will be widened to 12 lanes. Just don’t expect it any time soon.

www.insidehalton.com

Furthermore, Metrolinx/Infrastructure Ontario just awarded a massive contract last week to deliver 15 minute service on the Lakeshore east line: https://www.infrastructureontario.ca/Partner-Selected-RER-GO-Regional-Express-Rail-Corridor/

So, try to get it out of your heads like every improvement to a highway means something is taken away from rail. Both can be done at the same time. And both are needed.

 

[ericmacm]

Don't forget that the Bowmanville GO Extension just went to RFP as well, so the area will have no shortage of options, both rail and road. I agree that the 401 doesn't need to be widened all the way to Oshawa at this point in time, but it is one of the fastest growing cities in Canada now and the lanes will be needed eventually once the area hits Mississauga or Brampton levels in population, to accomodate local and through traffic. Planning for it now is just the smart thing to do.

There is no harm in future-proofing overpasses and planning for eventual widening that can come as needed. Lakeshore East GO improvements such as the 15-minute service and Bowmanville GO Extension will likely come online before this widening even takes place. Having rebuilt interchanges beforehand is going to make any future road work much easier and cheaper, unlike the 401 west widening where many of the overpasses are being replaced at the same time as the express/collector system construction.

Even as far away as London, old overpasses and interchanges are slowly being reconstructed to a size that can accomodate 4 lanes on each side, but that doesn't necessarily mean the 401 will be widened to 4 lanes each way toward London in the near future. It's just smart planning, which is needed on a highway that is simultaneously the most important provincial link for logistics and a highway that goes through most of Ontario's major communities.

 

[Ward8]

So, try to get it out of your heads like every improvement to a highway means something is taken away from rail. Both can be done at the same time. And both are needed.

The argument coming from some on the thread is that it's not really an improvement to the highway. I can't speak to each specific project, but adding lanes in general has rapidly diminishing returns. It doesn't necessarily take away from rail, but it can also be a bad project on its own merits. The 401 is already one of the widest highways in the world. Spending vast amounts of money on nickel and dime improvements doesn't make sense to me. There are structural and fundamental problems that have to be addressed to have long term success. The classic analogy is that adding lanes is like loosening your belt to cure obesity.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The argument coming from some on the thread is that it's not really an improvement to the highway. I can't speak to each specific project, but adding lanes in general has rapidly diminishing returns. It doesn't necessarily take away from rail, but it can also be a bad project on its own merits. The 401 is already one of the widest highways in the world. Spending vast amounts of money on nickel and dime improvements doesn't make sense to me. There are structural and fundamental problems that have to be addressed to have long term success. The classic analogy is that adding lanes is like loosening your belt to cure obesity.

The 401 is the widest on earth (though not for long as Houston has something bigger in the plans), but only between the 410 and 427. And believe it or not, that part of the highway actually isn't that congested. Nobody is really asking for that part to be widened, as it doesn't really need to be.

The part of the highway in discussion here is in Durham, is only 6 lanes wide, and is far from the widest in even Durham Region, yet alone the world.

Given that the 401 through Scarborough is relatively uncongested despite the collector-express being built there 30 years ago now, I don't think any arguments that widening through Durham would automatically make it equally congested as today will stand up. That kind of argument only works in areas where there are high rates of trip diversions occurring prior to the completion of the work. For example, widening the Gardiner into Downtown Toronto likely wouldn't substantially improve travel times as many people are diverting trips already away from it, but in Durham that pent up demand isn't as plentiful and the effects of induced demand would be more minor.

 

[stevensontransit]

The 401 is the widest on earth (though not for long as Houston has something bigger in the plans), but only between the 410 and 427. And believe it or not, that part of the highway actually isn't that congested. Nobody is really asking for that part to be widened, as it doesn't really need to be.

The part of the highway in discussion here is in Durham, is only 6 lanes wide, and is far from the widest in even Durham Region, yet alone the world.

Given that the 401 through Scarborough is relatively uncongested despite the collector-express being built there 30 years ago now, I don't think any arguments that widening through Durham would automatically make it equally congested as today will stand up. That kind of argument only works in areas where there are high rates of trip diversions occurring prior to the completion of the work. For example, widening the Gardiner into Downtown Toronto likely wouldn't substantially improve travel times as many people are diverting trips already away from it, but in Durham that pent up demand isn't as plentiful and the effects of induced demand would be more minor.

401 is usually constantly moving between McCowan road and Salem Road because the highway is pretty wide and there are less people living east of Toronto than west of the city like Peel.

 

[Northern Light]

Presser incoming on the Morriston by-pass. The fact it includes 'next steps' in the teaser suggests to me construction isn't imminent, but we shall see.

Ontario Newsroom

news.ontario.ca

 

[Northern Light]

A question of highway signage, and when acronyms and abbreviations may be too much.

On my walk on Saturday April 30, i passed this sign and thought, "If I was from out of town, would I get this? "

 

[innsertnamehere]

I'm from town and barely understand FGG, I doubt many people from Toronto would even know it stands for "Frederick G. Gardiner". Most people just know it as the Gardiner.

Honestly the sign even looks like it has enough space to fit the extra 5 letters in to say "Gardiner" instead of "FGG"

 

[innsertnamehere]

Presser incoming on the Morriston by-pass. The fact is includes 'next steps' in the teaser suggests to me construction isn't imminent, but we shall see.

Ontario Newsroom

news.ontario.ca

my understanding is that the contract to build the new interchange on Highway 6 into Guelph is starting construction this summer as a part of the project, but the bypass itself is still a year or two away.

 

[ShonTron]

I'm from town and barely understand FGG, I doubt many people from Toronto would even know it stands for "Frederick G. Gardiner". Most people just know it as the Gardiner.

Honestly the sign even looks like it has enough space to fit the extra 5 letters in to say "Gardiner" instead of "FGG"

The more common abbreviation is “FGE” – Frederick Gardiner Expressway.

But “Frederick” doesn’t appear anywhere on signs. I didn’t even know about the middle initial. FGE is bad, and FGG is terrible.

 

[lenaitch]

A question of highway signage, and when acronyms and abbreviations may be too much.

On my walk on Saturday April 30, i passed this sign and thought, "If I was from out of town, would I get this? "

View attachment 397276

I actually think it's kinda funny, in a bit of a sad way. I often feel bureaucrats and professionals sometimes get so caught up in the worlds they forget how their worlds relates to the rest of us. Every little thing shouldn't have to be run through some public communications professional (in which case two or three more signs would probably be needed) - just think about it a bit. The adage 'does it stupid to you when you say it' has a lot of merit.

Several years ago the MTO liked to have signs saying 'zone painting ahead' - not really understanding how little that means to the public. Also, their highway directional and interchange signs are (or perhaps 'were', I don't pay much attention any more) often bass-ackwards. When they post, say '21 Dufferin County Rd.', most of the public just sees the Dufferin County Rd. part, probably because people are more used to road names. It is significant when folks call in collisions, etc.

Our daughter works for the military. The military loves acronyms. Now there is a spoken and written language that is pretty much unintelligible to the general public.

 

[nfitz]

Honestly the sign even looks like it has enough space to fit the extra 5 letters in to say "Gardiner" instead of "FGG"

It certainly has enough space for 1 extra letter to say GARD!

 

[Undead]

Oh fgg, I missed my exit again.

 

[afransen]

Our daughter works for the military. The military loves acronyms. Now there is a spoken and written language that is pretty much unintelligible to the general public.

Most internal company meetings are a stream of inscutable TLAs (three letter acronyms) and jargon. My person fave is when companies internally overload industry standard terms to take on a different meaning. No end of opportunity for miscommunication. In some meetings my job is to literally decode jargon for different parties when they get baffled.

 

[nfitz]

My person fave is when companies internally overload industry standard terms to take on a different meaning.

Yeah ... my favourite recently is HR talking about jobs in the office as being "on-site" - even in the construction industry.

I ignored a few of those at first, thinking I didn't want to work on a construction site.