Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[innsertnamehere]

Did Ford go through with ripping up the Beer Store contract? I thought that doing so would cost something like a trillion dollars, and as such he decided not to go for it.

the cost for ripping up the beer store contract was something like a billion from what I remember, and it expires in 2025 anyway, so I think they just decided not to bother until then.

I imagine when the contract comes up for renewal the province will throw the books at the Beer Store. *especially* if the PCs are still in power.

 

[Haljackey]

About eliminating tolls on the 412/418 highways.

A step backwards in my judgement.

How so?

To be fair tolling these highways was stupid in the first place. And it shows. They are empty. Accessing the few interchanges on the 412/418 should have always been free. You shouldn't be charged a fee until you are on a dedicated route to the 407.

This will free up some capacity on local roads and the 35/115. This is one place where 'induced demand' makes total sense. There is underutilized infrastructure that already exists and that is dumb. If it's already done we may as well get the best possible use out of it.

I am still surprised that two full freeway connections N/S were built as part of the 407 extension. The 412 would have been just fine tolled or un-tolled. 418 is too close to the 35/115 to be of much use IMO... especally if you toll it

 

[Northern Light]

How so?

To be fair tolling these highways was stupid in the first place. And it shows. They are empty. Accessing the few interchanges on the 412/418 should have always been free. You shouldn't be charged a fee until you are on a dedicated route to the 407.

This will free up some capacity on local roads and the 35/115. This is one place where 'induced demand' makes total sense. There is underutilized infrastructure that already exists and that is dumb. If it's already done we may as well get the best possible use out of it.

I am still surprised that two full freeway connections N/S were built as part of the 407 extension. The 412 would have been just fine tolled or un-tolled. 418 is too close to the 35/115 to be of much use IMO... especally if you toll it

I opposed building these freeways, I opposed the 407 East, and I oppose subsidizing their use, I think those who use them should pay for them.

I'm completely even-handed and support tolling all 400-series highways.

 

[ARG1]

I opposed building these freeways, I opposed the 407 East, and I oppose subsidizing their use, I think those who use them should pay for them.

I'm completely even-handed and support tolling all 400-series highways.

However, that still keeps the problem that the only people who use these highways are the rich who can afford the luxury of paying for them. Its not exactly an equitable situation - driving by an empty road whilst you watch the peasants stuck on the 401.

 

[Northern Light]

However, that still keeps the problem that the only people who use these highways are the rich who can afford the luxury of paying for them. Its not exactly an equitable situation - driving by an empty road whilst you watch the peasants stuck on the 401.

I would toll the 401 too, no peasants there either. LOL

I'm all for income-contingent tolling too; though, we're a few years from pulling that off.

Base toll is a transit fare $3.20, everyone pays, after that a per km charge.

If we can swing income-contingent tolling, the per km charge can vary by income level.

 

[Steve X]

Next he needs to rip up the contract on the 407. This can be done with a simple change of the law. Let the foreign operators try to sue Ontario in its own courts.

Linda McQuaig: Doug Ford should cancel Highway 407 contract

Forget about the Beer Store contract, the public interest would be best served by taking back the “revenue-generating monster” GTA highway.

www.thestar.com

If we can cancel contracts for wind farms and the Beer Store, we can cancel contracts for the 407. And we should pass a law that no Premier can enter into 99 year contracts for anything.

Sanctions and economical retaliation would come from foreign powers if that was the solution. If that doesn’t stop it, the old world tactics is war and invasion to make Ontario comply.

Do we really need to go down that path?

 

[DirectionNorth]

Next he needs to rip up the contract on the 407. This can be done with a simple change of the law. Let the foreign operators try to sue Ontario in its own courts.

Linda McQuaig: Doug Ford should cancel Highway 407 contract

Forget about the Beer Store contract, the public interest would be best served by taking back the “revenue-generating monster” GTA highway.

www.thestar.com

If we can cancel contracts for wind farms and the Beer Store, we can cancel contracts for the 407. And we should pass a law that no Premier can enter into 99 year contracts for anything.

Changing laws as we wish to break up a contract (even one that's horrible for us) is a bad move. It signals to the business community that the Government of Ontario will not keep its word, and that the rule of law will be changed to suit the government's needs. As much as the 407 ETR contract sucks, getting rid of it would probably mean that in the future, when a company does business with our provincial government, they will demand stricter terms/higher compensation for the risk over a broken contract. Not worth it - I would rather use the tolls we get from 407 East (and the un-untolled 412/418) to slowly buy back bits of the 407 consortium.

Sanctions and economical retaliation would come from foreign powers if that was the solution. If that doesn’t stop it, the old world tactics is war and invasion to make Ontario comply.

Do we really need to go down that path?

That would set a new record for overreaction. It's a dumb highway. Very much doubt that would happen.

 

[afransen]

Next he needs to rip up the contract on the 407. This can be done with a simple change of the law. Let the foreign operators try to sue Ontario in its own courts.

You mean foreigners like the Canadian Pension Plan?

 

[Admiral Beez]

You mean foreigners like the Canadian Pension Plan?

RBT’s already got this covered. I’d forgotten that the CPP bought a majority stake from the offshore owners.

Perhaps you're referring to something else, or do you just repeat what others post? I used to be a d#ck too, looking for gotcha moments to make myself look sharp, I get it.

 

[afransen]

RBT’s already got this covered. I’d forgotten that the CPP bought a majority stake from the offshore owners.

Perhaps you're referring to something else, or do you just repeat what others post? I used to be a d#ck too, looking for gotcha moments to make myself look sharp, I get it.

Even if it were entirely foreign owned, I don't think it is wise to just rip up contracts and tell the other party to pound sand. Canadians own a lot of foreign assets and normalizing confiscation of foreign owned assets would not make the world a better place.

 

[ericmacm]

The 412/418 highlight some of the biggest issues with tolling on smaller highway sections - if there is a free option, people will use it. The highways are short and people can feasibly take the local north-south roads in Ajax, Whitby, and Oshawa with minimal time sacrificed. It would make more sense to toll them if they were much longer and served Lake Simcoe/Kawartha Lakes, meaning they could capture long-distance drivers.

The 407 actually makes a lot more sense as a tolled freeway since it is a long highway that hits many larger destinations along its route. It is a lot more difficult to take local roads or untolled highways to get to the same destinations that the 407 serves while getting a similar travel time, so there is a degree of value generated for users. The same cannot be said about the 412/418, so it ultimately makes a lot of sense that they would eliminate the tolls.

 

[Haljackey]

Ontario Eliminating Licence Plate Renewal Fees and Stickers​

Ontario Newsroom

news.ontario.ca

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So along with no toll revenue from 412 and 418, no more revenue from the sticker renewal. If you read the press release it mentions:
“For many families, driving is an absolute necessity. Eliminating licence plate renewal fees and stickers is part of our government’s commitment to support drivers as we continue to build Ontario’s transportation network, including by building the Bradford Bypass and Highway 413.”

Uhh... so how are you going to build new stuff when we have less money to work with? It is going to be harder to maintain what already exists, let alone any expansions or new projects.

'Progressive Conservative' except when it comes to fiscal responsibility. Ontario really needs a solid plan to balance the budget or even run in the black significantly to pay off debt.

...But its easier and more appealing to voters to go into the red.

With fuel prices the way they are now, it's political suicide to propose a new tax/fee by any of the parties for the next election.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Total money grab election ploy.

It'll be an effective one though - it aims right at middle class 905 and outer 416 households, who tend to have multiple cars, and happen to be the most critical voters for the PCs. Refunding the previous plate fees will result in cheques in the mailboxes too, on top of the just straight cancellation of the fees. Will do very well for Ford in terms of being an actual election ploy. Probably some of the most efficient vote-buying money can buy for the PCs.

In terms of being effective policy - it's a terrible one, considering that gas tax revenues will probably start falling very soon as a result of larger amounts of EVs on the road.. A new way to raise revenue for road maintenance needs to be found, and many countries are toying with odometer based plate fee renewals to make up for gas tax revenues from EVs.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Ontario Eliminating Licence Plate Renewal Fees and Stickers​

Ontario Newsroom

news.ontario.ca

-----

So along with no toll revenue from 412 and 418, no more revenue from the sticker renewal. If you read the press release it mentions:
“For many families, driving is an absolute necessity. Eliminating licence plate renewal fees and stickers is part of our government’s commitment to support drivers as we continue to build Ontario’s transportation network, including by building the Bradford Bypass and Highway 413.”

Uhh... so how are you going to build new stuff when we have less money to work with? It is going to be harder to maintain what already exists, let alone any expansions or new projects.

'Progressive Conservative' except when it comes to fiscal responsibility. Ontario really needs a solid plan to balance the budget or even run in the black significantly to pay off debt.

...But its easier and more appealing to voters to go into the red.

With fuel prices the way they are now, it's political suicide to propose a new tax/fee by any of the parties for the next election.

To pay for this, the Conservatives will have to raise taxes. However, not for the rich or the corporations.

 

[ARG1]

To pay for this, the Conservatives will have to raise taxes. However, not for the rich or the corporations.

When you consider how deep the government is in the red from the past few years, a billion in lost revenue is a drop in the bucket compared to how much we lost due to COVID. You can expect a lot more taxes after the election as reopening occurs, including but not limited to the rich or the corporation. The middle class especially is going to feel the brunt of it, regardless of which party gets in.