Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[kamira51]

Ontario engineers raise red flags about Bradford Bypass

The Ontario Society of Professional Engineers said it isn’t calling for the cancellation of the project, but has concerns about its environmental impact. The group also sounded alarms about a “lack of data and evidence” backing the proposal.

www.nationalobserver.com

About the Bradford Bypass mostly

Interesting article, I'm curious what the solution is regarding the concerns of going through the marsh.

 

[lenaitch]

On the topic of road usage charges, I’d believe that our license plates are going to come due for an overhaul into the digital age.
It would make sense for the plate to connect to the car via Bluetooth and read directly from the odometer or track the distance travelled on its own. The smart plate would then be able to “call home” to the MTO every so often to upload the latest reports. It should be able to send a flag if a tampered odometer reading is suspected as well. Since the smart shouldn’t take much energy, the plates can be powered wirelessly or at least run off a watch battery.

An added bonus would be that we should be able to ditch the archaic plate sticker system since every police force in the province should have ALPRs to validate the plates.

This is just a random idea I have in mind, so it’s not like they exist yet.

Cost and privacy concerns would be big issues. There would also need to be a North American-wide technology standard.

ALPR systems currently run around US$15K a pop times a couple of thousand patrol vehicles.

The government actually did muse about dropping the 'valtags' a couple of years ago until they were reminded that there are only a comparative handful of automated readers across the province.

 

[TorontoBun]

Cost and privacy concerns would be big issues. There would also need to be a North American-wide technology standard.

ALPR systems currently run around US$15K a pop times a couple of thousand patrol vehicles.

The government actually did muse about dropping the 'valtags' a couple of years ago until they were reminded that there are only a comparative handful of automated readers across the province.

Costs would be an issue if we decide to be the first or end up developing a “made in Ontario” solution, which is a valid concern going by the governments track record on transit fare cards and e-health.

I don’t really see much of a privacy issue with smart plates over traditional license plates. I would believe that the plates wouldn’t store any additional information other than the vehicle they’re registered under as well as odometer readings and validation status.

I’m not expecting the smart plates to roll out this decade, but there’s going to have to be research started sometime this decade as the world embraces the Internet of Things. While governments can be slow for change, I’d expect that by the time that the powers that be make such an announcement, most forces should have acquired ALPRs or funding would be allocated to speed along the acquisitions.

I realize that the rollout of such a theoretical idea might take longer than when we may reach critical mass of EV ownership (most likely late 2020s), so there may have to be interim measures made to recoup the lost revenue of gas taxes or eat up the costs and make the provincial subsidy of road users even more obvious against transit subsidies.

 

[lenaitch]

Costs would be an issue if we decide to be the first or end up developing a “made in Ontario” solution, which is a valid concern going by the governments track record on transit fare cards and e-health.

I don’t really see much of a privacy issue with smart plates over traditional license plates. I would believe that the plates wouldn’t store any additional information other than the vehicle they’re registered under as well as odometer readings and validation status.

I’m not expecting the smart plates to roll out this decade, but there’s going to have to be research started sometime this decade as the world embraces the Internet of Things. While governments can be slow for change, I’d expect that by the time that the powers that be make such an announcement, most forces should have acquired ALPRs or funding would be allocated to speed along the acquisitions.

I realize that the rollout of such a theoretical idea might take longer than when we may reach critical mass of EV ownership (most likely late 2020s), so there may have to be interim measures made to recoup the lost revenue of gas taxes or eat up the costs and make the provincial subsidy of road users even more obvious against transit subsidies.

Actually, the more I think about it, a sensor plugged into the vehicles OBD port wouldn't necessarily require some grand international collaborated if they were able to ensure the regulators and manufacturers that it doesn't interfere with or impair onboard systems software. I assume this is what the insurance industry did when it introduced distance/driving habits-based policies; it's only receiving outputs.

The privacy issue might be more tricky, primarily because it involves the state and would be mandatory. There are numerous advocates that are 'surveillance adverse' and might need convincing, possibly through the courts.

Any automated system would have to be able to recover its own costs. Currently, plates and tags cost pennies. There is the Service Ontario infrastructure, but that would have to continue to exist regardless.

As far as the ALRP scanners, police funding can be funny sometimes. Municipalities would want to see a net return on their investment or simply demand that the province fund them. Provincially (OPP), they recently had $40-odd Mn pulled from their budget (pre-dating the 'defunding' cry - simply government 'efficiencies). They have never received funding for in-car cameras and, even though they are being tested, there is no assurance that the government will fund body-worn cameras, particularly after the issue falls off the political radar.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Good Toronto footage here.

 

[Urban Obsession]

Good Toronto footage here.

that was just posted at the top of the pg..

 

[whydidimakethis]

Is that your video? I notice it is made by a local (Ontarian).

No it's not my video. I just found it very interesting, and I also posted it here because the video prominently featured examples from Ontario (as you mentioned) and the Ontario Tall Wall.

 

[Jonny5]

It would make sense for the plate to connect to the car via Bluetooth

I sure hope not. Bluetooth is a horrible protocol that's barely functional in ideal circumstances. Even the latest iteration of Bluetooth is still unreliable, prone to failing with even light interference, and in general daily experience still often fails with no explicable reason. Beyond that, I don't know what we're trying to accomplish with something like this.

 

[Undead]

^Definitely don't need another piece of electronics in my car that will siphon my data to send and sell to god knows who, and make repairs costlier.

 

[Kitsune]

A Sudbury construction company is suing the province for 20 million dollars for providing an incorrect volume of rock that needed to be removed as part of Highway 69 widening:

Sudbury construction company, Ontario government embroiled in $20M lawsuit over Hwy. 69 widening

A Sudbury construction company is suing the Ontario government, arguing the contract it signed to expand part of Highway 69 incorrectly estimated the amount of rock that would be leftover at the end of the project.

northernontario.ctvnews.ca

 

[Transportfan]

Good Toronto footage here.

Yeah, a Canadian video...with a US footage barely seven seconds (!) in. I was naive in thinking thinking a reversal of the normal pattern had happened...Nope!

 

[anb]

I don’t understand the logic of the provincial government at times. Look at the many highway options just south of us in New York. Yes it is in a completely different country, but the traffic flow of the many different highways are impressive, even just north of the big city itself, where you would have 2 or 3 parallel highways running next to each other to keep the overall traffic flow. Imagine if the 427, 400, and 404 all got extended further north connected to Highway 11, which would be upgraded and fixed to 400 series standards. Then this route would connect us with a twinned 417/17, running from Winnipeg to the Quebec border, giving Northern and Eastern Ontario a complete transportation link, and a half relief off the 401.

There could also be other considerations in mind such as extending the 115 to Ottawa, and then also making a new highway from the 7/115 junction in Peterborough to Highway 85 in Waterloo via the Bradford Bypass and a twinning of both Highway 9 with a new segment from Arthur, south to where the 85 freeway currently ends, and then extending the 7/8 expressway to the 402. All these ideas would actually amplify Ontario as an important transportation link to the various hubs and cities that these new and improved highways will offer, as well as naturally making the other half in relieving the 401. If we played the cost, opposition control and the infrastructure right, then something could actually get done about our current transportation status, and we wouldn’t have to sit here dreaming of what future potential could be done for the province..

 

[whydidimakethis]

I don’t understand the logic of the provincial government at times. Look at the many highway options just south of us in New York. Yes it is in a completely different country, but the traffic flow of the many different highways are impressive, even just north of the big city itself, where you would have 2 or 3 parallel highways running next to each other to keep the overall traffic flow. Imagine if the 427, 400, and 404 all got extended further north connected to Highway 11, which would be upgraded and fixed to 400 series standards. Then this route would connect us with a twinned 417/17, running from Winnipeg to the Quebec border, giving Northern and Eastern Ontario a complete transportation link, and a half relief off the 401.

There could also be other considerations in mind such as extending the 115 to Ottawa, and then also making a new highway from the 7/115 junction in Peterborough to Highway 85 in Waterloo via the Bradford Bypass and a twinning of both Highway 9 with a new segment from Arthur, south to where the 85 freeway currently ends, and then extending the 7/8 expressway to the 402. All these ideas would actually amplify Ontario as an important transportation link to the various hubs and cities that these new and improved highways will offer, as well as naturally making the other half in relieving the 401. If we played the cost, opposition control and the infrastructure right, then something could actually get done about our current transportation status, and we wouldn’t have to sit here dreaming of what future potential could be done for the province..

I don’t understand the logic of the provincial government at times. Look at the many highway options just south of us in New York. Yes it is in a completely different country, but the traffic flow of the many different highways are impressive, even just north of the big city itself, where you would have 2 or 3 parallel highways running next to each other to keep the overall traffic flow.- Disagree. New York is a much bigger city than Toronto both in size and population. Also, NYC's highways are pretty old and outdated. I don't really think they are a good example. Ontario seems to prefer having one or two really high quality corridors instead of multiple smaller ones. There is also a noticable lack of high speed rail in the US in general, which explains the demand for highways. We are living in 2020s, we don't need so many new highways. Instead invest the money in a transit system that rivals European metro areas to connect the Greater Golden Horshoe. For commercial trucks, fix up the husk of our existing cargo rail network and it could take thousands of trucks off the 401. Besides, the 400 is getting widened to Barrie in the long term.

Imagine if the 427, 400, and 404 all got extended further north connected to Highway 11, which would be upgraded and fixed to 400 series standards. Then this route would connect us with a twinned 417/17, running from Winnipeg to the Quebec border, giving Northern and Eastern Ontario a complete transportation link, and a half relief off the 401.- That is a little extreme. The 401 and the 417/17 are nowhere near eachother and are not in the same corridor at all. Truckers wouldn't use 17 to get across southern Ontario. For the 427, the extension to Major Mackenzie is fine, but it doesn't need to be extended unless the 413 is built (which I'm still indesicive about). For the 404, the extension to 12 is a maybe, but it should at least parallel Ravenshoe Road to 48, or at the bare minimum reconfigure the ramps so that traffic exiting onto Ravenshoe doesn't have to turn onto Woodbine first. Missing from your post is the 410, which I can't really see ever getting extended past Orangeville in the near future. While parts of 17 definitely need to be twinned, alot of the AADT on that route is far too low for four lanes. The 417 should be extended to Petawawa, and then 17 should be twinned from Sudbury to North Bay, and also from Kenora to Manitoba. The rest could be upraged to a 2+1 as seen earlier in this thread. Highway 11 should also be 6 laned to Orillia

There could also be other considerations in mind such as extending the 115 to Ottawa, and then also making a new highway from the 7/115 junction in Peterborough to Highway 85 in Waterloo via the Bradford Bypass- That is some very ambitious plans. I could see highway 7 being twinned to Ottawa sometime in the next 50 years, but it doesn't need to be full freeway. A new highway around Toronto via the Bradford Bypass isn't needed that badly but could be considered if the 413 was built which that in itself is a maybe.

and a twinning of both Highway 9 with a new segment from Arthur, south to where the 85 freeway currently ends, and then extending the 7/8 expressway to the 402. All these ideas would actually amplify Ontario as an important transportation link to the various hubs and cities that these new and improved highways will offer, as well as naturally making the other half in relieving the 401. If we played the cost, opposition control and the infrastructure right, then something could actually get done about our current transportation status, and we wouldn’t have to sit here dreaming of what future potential could be done for the province.- I don't know what you mean by the first part (from Arthur to Kitchener) because the route seems to go in the middle of nowhere and would serve like 2 people. There doesn't need to be a full freeway paralleling the 401, but 7 could be 5 laned or twinned at least until Stratford or London. A loop could be formed around London with the 403 and connect it to the 402, or the section of 401 between 403 and 402 uprgraded. This could connect to a twinned 7 as earlier mentioned. Other than that, high speed rail, fix our cargo rail (aka seperate passenger and cargo better and make new routes) have a lot of potential in the next century if we do it right.

 

[kamira51]

For the 427, the extension to Major Mackenzie is fine, but it doesn't need to be extended unless the 413 is built (which I'm still indesicive about). For the 404, the extension to 12 is a maybe, but it should at least parallel Ravenshoe Road to 48, or at the bare minimum reconfigure the ramps so that traffic exiting onto Ravenshoe doesn't have to turn onto Woodbine first. Missing from your post is the 410, which I can't really see ever getting extended past Orangeville in the near future.

There could also be other considerations in mind such as extending the 115 to Ottawa, and then also making a new highway from the 7/115 junction in Peterborough to Highway 85 in Waterloo via the Bradford Bypass- That is some very ambitious plans. I could see highway 7 being twinned to Ottawa sometime in the next 50 years, but it doesn't need to be full freeway. A new highway around Toronto via the Bradford Bypass isn't needed that badly but could be considered if the 413 was built which that in itself is a maybe.

I think the 413/or 427 should be extended to Bolton and end at the Gore Road. It will still benefit the industry that is still growing in Bolton and get trucks off highway 50 south of Mayfield.

I would assume that the GTA West highway will be the last highway to be built in the GTA.

 

[ARG1]

I don’t understand the logic of the provincial government at times. Look at the many highway options just south of us in New York. Yes it is in a completely different country, but the traffic flow of the many different highways are impressive, even just north of the big city itself, where you would have 2 or 3 parallel highways running next to each other to keep the overall traffic flow.- Disagree. New York is a much bigger city than Toronto both in size and population. Also, NYC's highways are pretty old and outdated. I don't really think they are a good example. Ontario seems to prefer having one or two really high quality corridors instead of multiple smaller ones. There is also a noticable lack of high speed rail in the US in general, which explains the demand for highways. We are living in 2020s, we don't need so many new highways. Instead invest the money in a transit system that rivals European metro areas to connect the Greater Golden Horshoe. For commercial trucks, fix up the husk of our existing cargo rail network and it could take thousands of trucks off the 401. Besides, the 400 is getting widened to Barrie in the long term.

Imagine if the 427, 400, and 404 all got extended further north connected to Highway 11, which would be upgraded and fixed to 400 series standards. Then this route would connect us with a twinned 417/17, running from Winnipeg to the Quebec border, giving Northern and Eastern Ontario a complete transportation link, and a half relief off the 401.- That is a little extreme. The 401 and the 417/17 are nowhere near eachother and are not in the same corridor at all. Truckers wouldn't use 17 to get across southern Ontario. For the 427, the extension to Major Mackenzie is fine, but it doesn't need to be extended unless the 413 is built (which I'm still indesicive about). For the 404, the extension to 12 is a maybe, but it should at least parallel Ravenshoe Road to 48, or at the bare minimum reconfigure the ramps so that traffic exiting onto Ravenshoe doesn't have to turn onto Woodbine first. Missing from your post is the 410, which I can't really see ever getting extended past Orangeville in the near future. While parts of 17 definitely need to be twinned, alot of the AADT on that route is far too low for four lanes. The 417 should be extended to Petawawa, and then 17 should be twinned from Sudbury to North Bay, and also from Kenora to Manitoba. The rest could be upraged to a 3+1 as seen earlier in this thread. Highway 11 should also be 6 laned to Orillia

There could also be other considerations in mind such as extending the 115 to Ottawa, and then also making a new highway from the 7/115 junction in Peterborough to Highway 85 in Waterloo via the Bradford Bypass- That is some very ambitious plans. I could see highway 7 being twinned to Ottawa sometime in the next 50 years, but it doesn't need to be full freeway. A new highway around Toronto via the Bradford Bypass isn't needed that badly but could be considered if the 413 was built which that in itself is a maybe.

and a twinning of both Highway 9 with a new segment from Arthur, south to where the 85 freeway currently ends, and then extending the 7/8 expressway to the 402. All these ideas would actually amplify Ontario as an important transportation link to the various hubs and cities that these new and improved highways will offer, as well as naturally making the other half in relieving the 401. If we played the cost, opposition control and the infrastructure right, then something could actually get done about our current transportation status, and we wouldn’t have to sit here dreaming of what future potential could be done for the province.- I don't know what you mean by the first part (from Arthur to Kitchener) because the route seems to go in the middle of nowhere and would seve like 2 people. There doesn't need to be a full freeway paralleling the 401, but 7 could be 5 laned or twinned at least until Stratford or London. A loop could be formed around London with the 403 and connect it to the 402, or the section of 401 between 403 and 402 uprgraded. This could connect to a twinned 7 as earlier mentioned. Other than that, high speed rail, fix our cargo rail (aka seperate passenger and cargo better and make new routes) have a lot of potential in the next century if we do it right.

I find it interesting that you bring up europe because, have you been there? That continent makes the Interstate System look miniscule in comparison.

A lot of us push for highways because Toronto lacks both good transit and a good highway network in many locations.

Everything else you said is on point.