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Roads: Keep the Gardiner, fix it, or get rid of it? (2005-2014)

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Bojaxs said:
I think extending the Bloor-Danforth line to Sherway Gardens would take a lot of Mississauga drivers off the Gardiner.
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I drive down the south Kingsway (south end of jane) to get food from the food terminal in the mornings. If I drive this route during rush hour it takes me between 20-30 mins to get from bloor to the queensway. The reason is takes so long is because theres a line up of single occupancy cars driving towards the on ramp to get downtown. Now I would assume that a lot of these drivers originate from closer to bloor then to the queensway. If that is the case these people are willing to wait at least 20 mins on the south kingsway then how ever long it is on the gardner rather than take the Subway from Jane to stgeorge and then again south towards union (a 30 minute trip). All I am saying is that there are some people who simply refuse to take transit.
 
sixrings said:
I drive down the south Kingsway (south end of jane) to get food from the food terminal in the mornings. If I drive this route during rush hour it takes me between 20-30 mins to get from bloor to the queensway. The reason is takes so long is because theres a line up of single occupancy cars driving towards the on ramp to get downtown. Now I would assume that a lot of these drivers originate from closer to bloor then to the queensway. If that is the case these people are willing to wait at least 20 mins on the south kingsway then how ever long it is on the gardner rather than take the Subway from Jane to stgeorge and then again south towards union (a 30 minute trip). All I am saying is that there are some people who simply refuse to take transit.
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Thank goodness they are driving downtown using the Gardiner vs local roads/streetcar routes!

I've driven this route a bit as well. If you want to go to the Food terminal, Prince Edward/Park Lawn has virtually no traffic compared to South Kingsway. The bus does a loop (including stops) from Old Mill to about the Food Terminal and back in about 20 minutes.

For the other drivers, there are huge gaps in transit service both north and south of Bloor. Add in a bus and walking time, the transit time will be 1 to 1 1/2 hour. Comparing this to driving time (30 minutes) it's no wonder they drive. In fact, some people in the south drive away from downtown to the Mimico GO station (really early to get a parking spot) which is quicker than the subway. Or they drive to the city park by Old Mill Station (free parking...or at least no current enforcement) and take the subway in.

Getting back to the thread, it's not much different in time for people to take local roads downtown from Bloor West when parking is prohibited (Bloor to Dundas, Queensway to King, etc). It will be interesting to observe the increased local traffic on these streets when the Gardiner is repaired (which may cause the streetcars to be even slower).

And fyi, there is no capacity for additional transit users from the West. The subway is full...standing room only by Jane (with people offloading at Spadina, St George and Yonge) and the streetcars are full. The TTC seems not to care to spend any quick-win money encouraging people to transfer to GO (signs/a path for the GO at Dundas West, buses to Mimico...even the Royal York bus doesn't have a stop right at the station, signs before getting in the subway when the next GO Train is at Kipling, etc).

I think the current repairs in the West will be a litmus test for the east. Is there sufficient transit and local routes to divert 1/3 of all traffic off the Gardiner? Or will there be huge backups? (starts end of April so habits should have been changed by Sept) Is there enough slack in the system for 1/3 of traffic, 2/3 or 100% of traffic? This partial closure should give enough data to create accurate models of the various scenario's.

I'm just happy I take transit so I don't have to be the guinea pig!
 
An Etobicoke TC line off the road can serve Sherway, and even the Airport. And extend Line 2 to Cloverdale where the TC line can intersect there.
 
MrsNesbitt said:
Indeed. There's no reason Mississauga -> Downtown Toronto commuters should need to bus to Sherway and then stop at every Old Mill and Christie along Line 2 until they can transfer at St. George. It wouldn't get very many drivers off the Gardiner when it would take nearly twice as long :p
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What is this Line 2? Don't tell me they have already changed the names of the subway lines which is a ridiculous idea.
 
Palma said:
What is this Line 2? Don't tell me they have already changed the names of the subway lines which is a ridiculous idea.
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It's not so much changing the names as making the internal use of line numbers public. Lines 1 and 2 are already the YUS and BD lines, respectively, it's just that the numbers are now being used in public communication.

Sample TTC alert:

Customers may experience delays on Line 3 (Scarborough RT) due to mechanical difficulties. Please allow additional travel time.
 
Palma said:
What is this Line 2? Don't tell me they have already changed the names of the subway lines which is a ridiculous idea.
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Line 2 is Bloor-Danforth; the subway lines now have numbers as well as their traditional names. I prefer the names myself but numbers are more convenient and shorter to write.
 
And about this creating an even bigger barrier than what's already there... it wont. The gardiner is not a barrier at all, it's just falling apart and ugly. If it were fixed up, painted, and if the street and sidewalks of Lake shore were fixed up, it would not be as much of an issue. Furthermore, the asses of all the buildings in the area face onto lakeshore making it even worse. If the underside was lined with retail or public spaces, it would be much nicer. Why does this proposal work? Because with its construction will most likely bring all of the above.On the other hand, it is expensive and unrealistic. The concept is great, though. Thanks for sharing all that great information...
 
Ntasha said:
And about this creating an even bigger barrier than what's already there... it wont. The gardiner is not a barrier at all, it's just falling apart and ugly. If it were fixed up, painted, and if the street and sidewalks of Lake shore were fixed up, it would not be as much of an issue. Furthermore, the asses of all the buildings in the area face onto lakeshore making it even worse. If the underside was lined with retail or public spaces, it would be much nicer. Why does this proposal work? Because with its construction will most likely bring all of the above.On the other hand, it is expensive and unrealistic. The concept is great, though. Thanks for sharing all that great information...
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The Gardiner is a barrier because the amount of real estate dedicated to off and on ramps, as well as the volume of traffic entering and exiting the expressway, make it really unpleasant to be a pedestrian in the vicinity of Lakeshore and Jarvis, York and Spadina. Does it matter if walking in a central and growing part of the core is a miserable experience? Yes in a real city but I suppose not in Toronto.
 
Palma said:
What is this Line 2? Don't tell me they have already changed the names of the subway lines which is a ridiculous idea.
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Why do you use the short name of the Gardiner, instead of its correct name Frederick G. Gardiner Expressway. Which, in turn, is a continuation of the Queen Elizabeth Way (aka the QEW)? The same reason, for some, to use Line 2, instead of the 2 Bloor-Danforth Subway.
 
Have any road engineers responded to the First Gulf realignment proposal? Chow seems to be leaning toward it as are Soknacki and Stintz. Tory's attitude seems to be he likes whatever Ford Nayshun likes because that's what Kouvalis told him to say.

http://www.thestar.com/news/city_ha...ory_offer_first_hints_on_gardiner_policy.html

I'm guessing WT were really hoping not to have to deal with an elevated south of the rail corridor so they would maximise land value. Now we might have the worst of all worlds - retention costs plus new construction costs. Also - that's a REALLY sharp turn past the rail corridor.
 
*bump*

gardiner_realignment_proposal.jpg.size.xxlarge.promo.jpg


Any updates on the feasibility of the First Gulf proposal? The biggest challenge I see is maintaining access to the Don Roadway ramps. If constructed, the highway would likely need to pass over the rail corridor and to do so, the DVP would need to curve east in order to provide the grading to do so.
 
In terms of how the First Gulf proposed Gardiner could actually work with the road network, I envision the following;

mQJlVxc.png


Travelling West:
Existing roadway under Eastern Ave
Exit to Don Roadway SB, DVP continues as 2 Lanes.
Bridge over the Don Roadway NB ramp, rail corridor, Don Roadway and Don River.
DVP comes to grade beside the Don Yards and meets at intersection with Cherry/LSB
Through traffic merges with a now 5 Lane Westbound LSB

Travelling West:
After the full intersection with Parliament, the 2 leftmost lanes of LSB veer onto a ramp crossing over Cherry St.
Roadway continues at-grade south of the Don Yards as Don Valley Parkway
DVP crosses over the Don River, Don Roadway, rail corridor, and Don Roadway NB Ramp.
DVP comes to grade to pass under Eastern Ave.

The Don Roadway and Eastern Ave ramps would merge south of Eastern Ave and pass under the vacant section to the east of the existing NB underpass.

Broadview Ave and streetcar tracks would be extended under the rail corridor to meet with LSB/Saulter St S

Additionally, with the DVP shifted east and the at-grade potions replaced with a local street network, it would be possible to create a branch of the Lower Don recreational trail which crosses the Don on the Old Eastern Ave bridge.

[EDIT] I just realized I'd rammed a road through the old Unilever Factory. Ignore that and assume that the local minor street network would be up to First Gulf who would probably not ram a street through the most valuable asset on that site.
 
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