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Roads: Keep the Gardiner, fix it, or get rid of it? (2005-2014)

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I'm 25. If that bloody thing is still standing when I'm on my death bed, I may or may not die happy. It's one of only two things that truly bother me about Toronto. There's nothing good about it. Nothing. If traffic flow is of such serious concern then where the hell is the Spadina Expwy and the continuation of the Gardiner along where Kingston Road now lies? Can we build those now please? Do you know what they would do to alleviate congestion, oh my!
 
Maybe there's an alternative that can make most happy after all..........


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You can't build your way out of congestion unless you build a massively oversized network. At best, you hold off higher congestion for a few years. I like London (Greater London - 8.3m pop) as a comparison to Toronto (GTHA - 5.8m pop) because we are basically at the point where London was 30 years ago when they created the London Regional Transport (1984). With current population growth, Toronto will pass London in population by 2050. The M25 (London Ringroad) opened in 1986. It was overcapacity by 1987. By 1993 it was operating at 227% of maximum design capacity (200k AADT actual vs 88k AADT design).

This became known as the Commute Effect. As soon as a new expressway (M or A+ class) opened, congestion patterns would shift/spread out to more surround areas accessed by the new road to the point of an hour commute from the suburbs to the core. Fix the congestion on the Gardiner and the traffic is free to move on to the next bottle neck.

People (in general) are more concerned with personal costs (increased taxes, road tolls) than saving 15-75 minutes a trip. Those that value other things more (environment, personal time) look for alternative solutions such as transit or biking.
 
So if we were to extend the Gardiner east along the Kingston Road route and have it connect with the 401 in Pickering it would end up busting capacity? It would also alleviate the DVP and the stretch of 401 east of the DVP to Pickering.
 
M II A II R II K said:
So if we were to extend the Gardiner east along the Kingston Road route and have it connect with the 401 in Pickering it would end up busting capacity? It would also alleviate the DVP and the stretch of 401 east of the DVP to Pickering.
Click to expand...

It wouldn't alleviate anything. It would just be another jam-packed highway in rush hour.
 
^If you're doing it wrong.

In which case, it sounds like a serious fiend-jar cracker taking drugs.

Hmm, I've never thought of dropping highways in these terms. Kind of makes sense.
 
Yea I'm missing the point about if you add more highways, assuming there are the same number of cars on the road, how there can be no alleviation.

Unless of course it's only the local roads being alleviated and everything converges onto the highways.
 
M II A II R II K said:
Yea I'm missing the point about if you add more highways, assuming there are the same number of cars on the road, how there can be no alleviation.
Click to expand...

Ahh, but that's the thing. You don't get to assume there are going to be the same number of cars on the road.

Have a read through induced demand:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand

By making it easier for people to drive downtown, you are enticing more people to decide they will drive downtown. End result is the same congestion.
 
Yeah, I think the key is that for most people their car is a sunk cost. They're paying for it regardless. If they believe there's room on the road for them, they'll try driving.
 
It makes sense when you think of it on a personal basis. Because traffic is bad you: don't make a non-critical trip, you schedule around peak period, you seek alternative transport, or you make allowance for time. When traffic is good those considerations don't come into play.

Unless you are building a system large enough (and maintaining that surplus capacity as demand grows) to have free-flow conditions at all times, these will always be considerations and represent a repressed demand for transporation infrastructure.

Case in point is Hwy 407 and Hwy 401. We are 10 years on and commute times are worse.

There are more cars on the road every day. Approximately, 2000 people move to the GTHA per week. If we decided nationally not to target 2% GDP growth annually and turned the immigration supply down from 330,000 a year we would be able to keep up with incremental growth. As it is growth is outpacing funding for new infrastructure funding.
 
I have the ultimate solution then!

Raze whole sections of city and put highways in their place. Displace those populations and send them off to the rest of the province. Now, you have less people and more roads. Congestion-free! Why hasn't anyone thought of this yet?


Is it because having highways every three kilometres does not a great city make perhaps?
 
My solution to congestion is to speed vehicles up and to some extend reduce safety margins while increasing actual safety. Also, congestion begets land use intensification.
 
MTown said:
I have the ultimate solution then!

Raze whole sections of city and put highways in their place. Displace those populations and send them off to the rest of the province. Now, you have less people and more roads. Congestion-free! Why hasn't anyone thought of this yet?


Is it because having highways every three kilometres does not a great city make perhaps?
Click to expand...

Also, because if you demolish density and spread people out, they will drive further and more and have more cars per household and generally cause an enormous amount of traffic that wasn't there before.
 
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