Roads: Gardiner Expressway

[the lemur]

I'm wondering if there are any official stats about the average length of trips on the Gardiner. Anecdotally, it seems that when you have a good view of a long stretch of the Gardiner downtown (from, say, 40+ storeys up), it looks like most of the traffic travels more or less from end to end, or from one end to a downtown exit (or vice versa), not within downtown from exit to exit, because the Gardiner doesn't connect with all of the major downtown arterials.

Doug Ford's idea of adding lanes is ridiculous given the current size and condition of the expressway, and mixing tolled and toll-less lanes doesn't make much sense either, unless you do something like toll only the end-to-end traffic, or else toll the whole thing and charge by distance using ANPR or transponders.

Another option would be to put the Gardiner under Lake Shore and operate it as an express route bypassing all of downtown, or with just a few exits, and make the Lake Shore a true boulevard.

 

[omprakash]

First residential condos appear on waterfront. Gardiner Expressway (shown in red is built), Harbour Commision building show in blue.

 

[gweed123]

Holy crap!

Crazy eh? It almost looks like a controlled demolition. The video of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge collapse is pretty intense too, although that one looks much more like it's being ripped apart.

 

[Tewder]

Let's not forget the Twin Cities:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osocGiofdvc

 

[Torontovibe]

When I walk under the Gardiner, I can't help but think about cement falling on me. It just makes me nervous, knowing how unsafe this structure is and it looks like it's ready to fall at any time. (those patch up jobs, look so poorly done) I try to get past it as fast as I can.

 

[andrewpmk]

I'm wondering if there are any official stats about the average length of trips on the Gardiner. Anecdotally, it seems that when you have a good view of a long stretch of the Gardiner downtown (from, say, 40+ storeys up), it looks like most of the traffic travels more or less from end to end, or from one end to a downtown exit (or vice versa), not within downtown from exit to exit, because the Gardiner doesn't connect with all of the major downtown arterials.

Doug Ford's idea of adding lanes is ridiculous given the current size and condition of the expressway, and mixing tolled and toll-less lanes doesn't make much sense either, unless you do something like toll only the end-to-end traffic, or else toll the whole thing and charge by distance using ANPR or transponders.

Another option would be to put the Gardiner under Lake Shore and operate it as an express route bypassing all of downtown, or with just a few exits, and make the Lake Shore a true boulevard.

You can look up the average traffic volumes on the Gardiner (the east end is less busy, and traffic volumes increase the further west you go). I have no idea what percentage of people are going through downtown, you would need to use license plate recognition equipment (or at least random sample surveys) to figure this out. I do suspect that the number of people going through downtown using the Gardiner is non-negligible, as many people must use the DVP/Gardiner through route as an alternative to the 401. Lots of people are commuting from somewhere in Toronto other than downtown to Mississauga/Oakville/Brampton, the traffic on the Gardiner is just as bad westbound as eastbound in the morning. The southbound variable message signs on the DVP show traffic conditions on the Gardiner. On the Gardiner, if the traffic is good you get an idea of how tiny downtown Toronto is compared to the size of the GTA (and how I have to frequently remind people, downtown Toronto is NOT where the vast majority of people in the GTA work, as many people seem to forget).

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The quoted figure in the Fung Report is 20%, that's like what, the traffic of a single lane highway.

AoD

 

[Jaye101]

I remember when I went to Boston I spoke with one of the planners who worked on the Rose Kennedy Greenway (the park that replaced the Central Artery Expressway), and I told him about the plan to tear down the eastern portion of the Gardiner and replace it with a 10 lane boulevard. His response was very simple: "You can't make 10 lanes of traffic look like anything other than 10 lanes of traffic".

For example, the surface streets that replaced the Central Artery are two 3-lane one-way streets on either side of the Greenway. That's manageable from an urban walkability perspective. A 10 lane boulevard certainly is not.

 

[andrewpmk]

The quoted figure in the Fung Report is 20%, that's like what, the traffic of a single lane highway.

AoD

Good luck dumping the equivalent of 1 additional lane's worth of traffic on the 401 in rush hour.

Also, even if it were possible to find room to replace the Gardiner with a wide enough surface road with traffic lights, the delays caused by traffic lights would be pretty substantial. This just encourages people to use 401 instead of Gardiner. Since most of the Gardiner through downtown runs directly above Lake Shore, adding 3 lanes each way to Lakeshore is not at all feasible.

The Gardiner needs to be buried and replaced with a tunnel 5 lanes in each direction. Simultaneously, the DVP needs to be widened, particularly the more congested section north of the Don Mills exit. The point of this is to get traffic off the congested 401, which cannot easily be widened.

 

[EnviroTO]

Let's not forget the Twin Cities:

Don't forget Minneapolis.

 

[W. K. Lis]

With Councillor Denzil Minnan-Wong as Chair of the Public Works and Infrastructure Committee, he'll want to do away with the sidewalks, bicycle lanes if any, and turn them over the automobile, should it come down to tearing the Gardiner down. Not going happen under his watch.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

andrewpmk:

Good luck dumping the equivalent of 1 additional lane's worth of traffic on the 401 in rush hour.

You are assuming quite a few things here (and I am not even necessarily a proponent of replacing the expressway with a on the ground blvd) - 1. the replacement will not allow for through traffic linking the Gardiner and DVP; 2. that users will not use such an option and 3. that they will all use the 401 instead. Clearly, those assumptions are problematic.

Also, even if it were possible to find room to replace the Gardiner with a wide enough surface road with traffic lights, the delays caused by traffic lights would be pretty substantial. This just encourages people to use 401 instead of Gardiner. Since most of the Gardiner through downtown runs directly above Lake Shore, adding 3 lanes each way to Lakeshore is not at all feasible.

Substantial enough for someone to choose the 401 instead? You are probably dealing with a whole new level of delays going that route.

The Gardiner needs to be buried and replaced with a tunnel 5 lanes in each direction. Simultaneously, the DVP needs to be widened, particularly the more congested section north of the Don Mills exit. The point of this is to get traffic off the congested 401, which cannot easily be widened.

Making it 5 lanes wide doesn't change the fact that it is the local streets that are also saturated. And it is funny - DVP is probably one of the highways that will prove most difficult to widen...

AoD

 

[Critique]

Ok how about this?

Instead of tearing down the Gardiner (too expensive, not worth it, wont solve anything...blah blach etc)

How about taking apart the roads that go below or past the Gardiner to the waterfront? That way...the entire underneath of the Gardiner and onward to the lake is made into one big park. Yes, I know there are condos and buildings along the waterfront so transportation will be needed but that may be solved by building an underground subway (expensive i know), or a few two way streets that allow people to better access and get out of the waterfront. However, the bulk of my plan is dependent on many of the "wall of condos" along the waterfront (especially in front of the Gardiner to be knocked down). Everything is made into a park with public spaces. The campus, harbourfront center, and public places can stay because they add to the waterfront (and for those we build roads to access.)

But for the main part, the whole of the gradiner underneath to the lake is basically a people friendly but no-condo public place with trees and some institutions.

How will this solve anything? It will still be expensive but not as much expensive as burying the Gardiner...Burying the Gardiner will only solve the fact that is an eyesore. It will not help traffic even with extra lanes because of local streets still being saturated. Traffic will not be solved by doing anything to the Gardiner (unless you take it down and build another highway or something).

My idea will make Gardiner less of an eyesore, get rid of the eyesore condos, make the waterfront a world class destination simply because it will be restored, reduce density near the water, increase the amount of people going to the waterfront, and allow people to access the waterfront more easily....

Oh btw....queens quay will be transformed into a pedestrian only path and the only streets will be (like i said) those linking important buildings and the rest will be pathways for pedestrians. All those ugly parking lots will also be transformed into green space.


Problems with my idea may be the money but i think this might get the interest of people because they want their green space. Yes, those living near the waterfront in those condos wont like it but meh you cant make everyone happy.


This is obviously just an idea so i know there will be problems but tell me what you think!

 

[PinkLucy]

Queen's Quay is undergoing major changes now to include a pedestrian walkway, so part of your idea is already happening

 

[W. K. Lis]

Remove the highway?

Well...
[video=vimeo;21509646]http://vimeo.com/21509646[/video]