Roads: Gardiner Expressway

[TOareaFan]

well, too bad for those who choose to drive. Vancouver and Manhattan can manage without a major highway through the city, so can Toronto.

That's valuable......compare Toronto to a city of about 1/3 its size and a larger one with how many times as many transit lines?

I don't know anyone with an emotional attachment to the Gardiner.......show people alternatives (both during and after the build) for their daily commuting needs...show them how it works here, you may get some response/support.....telling them don't worry you'll be fine won't get the support.

 

[gweed123]

The Gardiner will be torn down but I don't think the grand boulevard option will be chosen. Was it a 8, 10 or 12 lane boulevard?

I remember when I went to Boston I spoke with one of the planners who worked on the Rose Kennedy Greenway (the park that replaced the Central Artery Expressway), and I told him about the plan to tear down the eastern portion of the Gardiner and replace it with a 10 lane boulevard. His response was very simple: "You can't make 10 lanes of traffic look like anything other than 10 lanes of traffic".

For example, the surface streets that replaced the Central Artery are two 3-lane one-way streets on either side of the Greenway. That's manageable from an urban walkability perspective. A 10 lane boulevard certainly is not.

 

[MetroMan]

Somebody with no political capital to lose just has to say: "Shut the fuck up, we're doing this. It'll take 5 years of headaches but it's happening.You'll thank me later".

The expressway is deteriorating pretty rapidly, and it's only a matter of time before something happens that's going to force it's permanent closure, and then we're going to be stuck sitting there with our thumbs up our asses.

Maybe this already happened in the past. The Embarcadero had somebody come around without consulting anybody and knocked the whole thing down. God.

Maybe it'll take an act of God to get our asses moving. It'll be a shame if somebody has to die but with the way we're heading, it won't be long before a big chunk the size of a bus falls down and flattens a minivan.

 

[MetroMan]

This whole re-opened debate just inspired me to re-watch a documentary that was made about a decade ago on the Big Dig. Unfortunately, that project has become synonymous with cost overruns. What's even more unfortunate is that those cost overruns were related to the project management of that project, and not the engineering.

What's that documentary? I'd like to watch it. I followed the Big Dig at the time it was being built but never really remembered to check back see a summary of the work in retrospect. I'm sure they learned a lot from the Big Dig. The Gardiner in comparison is like making sandcastles at the beach. I think a better equivalent would be to build an underground Gardiner and Rocco Rossi's Underground Spadina Highway.

We could use such a network but it's not critical. Replacing the Gardiner is.

 

[DSC]

Hmmm - one wonders where the extra lanes might go!

From G & M. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...tolls-for-gardiner-expressway/article4624069/

Councillor Doug Ford says it’s time to partner with the private sector and consider adding toll lanes to the Gardiner Expressway in the wake of a report that finds falling concrete from the elevated highway represents “a significant hazard to public safety.

The Etobicoke councillor, who uses the Gardiner as part of his daily commute, said the city needs to investigate a partnership with the private sector that would see the addition of extra lanes on the busy highway. Such a move could generate money for needed repairs through tollsâ€

 

[gweed123]

What's that documentary? I'd like to watch it. I followed the Big Dig at the time it was being built but never really remembered to check back see a summary of the work in retrospect. I'm sure they learned a lot from the Big Dig. The Gardiner in comparison is like making sandcastles at the beach. I think a better equivalent would be to build an underground Gardiner and Rocco Rossi's Underground Spadina Highway.

We could use such a network but it's not critical. Replacing the Gardiner is.

Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4fi7DCD4Bs

The Central Artery is really 3 separate projects all interconnected: The new crossing of the Charles River, the replacement of the elevated Central Artery (which is what would be most parallel to the Gardiner), and the extension of I-90 under the harbour to Logan Airport.

The type of construction that would be necessary to replace the Gardiner would be very similar to what was needed to replace the Central Artery Expressway. The specifics may differ slightly, but it's the same concept.

 

[nfitz]

The Embarcadero had somebody come around without consulting anybody and knocked the whole thing down.

No one did it. It was an earthquake ... not the work of færies or other fantasy creatures.

 

[gweed123]

No one did it. It was an earthquake ... not the work of færies or other fantasy creatures.

Toronto may have to make a similar sudden choice. Although it won't be from an earthquake, it'll be from the damn thing falling down on it's own. I'd much rather not have it come to that. The last thing I want to see is something like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-35W_Mississippi_River_bridge

 

[nfitz]

Toronto may have to make a similar sudden choice. Although it won't be from an earthquake, it'll be from the damn thing falling down on it's own.

I don't think anyone is thinking it's anywhere near that. This seems to be more a cosmetic issue of falling concrete, rather than failure of structural elements. Compared to the how similar structures in Montreal look, I think the Gardiner looks to be in tremendous shape.

 

[Creighton]

I don't think anyone is thinking it's anywhere near that. This seems to be more a cosmetic issue of falling concrete, rather than failure of structural elements. Compared to the how similar structures in Montreal look, I think the Gardiner looks to be in tremendous shape.

I believe that's the problem indicated by the article: it looks to be in much better shape than it actually is. At least in Montreal they are in the process of tearing down both the Bonaventure and the Turcot (before the Turcot falls down all by itself!).

 

[nfitz]

I believe that's the problem indicated by the article: it looks to be in much better shape than it actually is. At least in Montreal they are in the process of tearing down both the Bonaventure and the Turcot (before the Turcot falls down all by itself!).

The article seemed to say the roadway was safe, and it's only falling chunks of concrete that are the problem (I'm not sure such an issue would even be newsworthy in Montreal). But I'm not sure what the actual report that is referenced says. Does anyone have a link to it?

 

[Peepers]

Hmmm - one wonders where the extra lanes might go!

From G & M. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...tolls-for-gardiner-expressway/article4624069/

Councillor Doug Ford says it’s time to partner with the private sector and consider adding toll lanes to the Gardiner Expressway in the wake of a report that finds falling concrete from the elevated highway represents “a significant hazard to public safety.

The Etobicoke councillor, who uses the Gardiner as part of his daily commute, said the city needs to investigate a partnership with the private sector that would see the addition of extra lanes on the busy highway. Such a move could generate money for needed repairs through tolls”

And by "public private partnerships" what exactly does Ford have in mind? My guess is he is proposing another Hwy 407 type "partnership" where a public asset is sold to a foreign company for pennies on the dollar.

Of course Doug Ford doesn't mind the prospect of paying tolls. He can write them off as expenses against his printing business. The question is, aside from a faster commute time what else is in it for Doug Ford?

Be very wary when Politicians start talking about "3P's". The only thing that gets privatized are profits. The public gets stuck with the costs.

I suppose the next thing Doug Ford will propose to sell off is Toronto Hydro.

 

[andrewpmk]

well, too bad for those who choose to drive. Vancouver and Manhattan can manage without a major highway through the city, so can Toronto.

Or Take 407 if 401 is too congested. "Go through downtown" is never a good idea and should be minimized. This thing has to be done, sooner or later. Keeping throwing money fixing the crumbling Gardiner is not the solution and everyone knows that.

The 407 is a private highway with outrageously high tolls. Plus it is often a long detour if you are starting from somewhere north of downtown but south of the 407. If you want to go from the 404/DVP/401 interchange to Oakville (for example) you can take either 401/427/QEW, 401/403/QEW or DVP/Gardiner/QEW. You are either going "through" downtown or "through" North York Centre, and the congestion on each of those routes is about the same. Taking 407 is a long detour, expensive and often takes longer if the traffic isn't that bad. The Gardiner needs to stay, because closing it will just cause huge traffic jams on Lakeshore and 401.

Even if we improve public transit options downtown (e.g. Lakeshore GO improvements), we still need a highway downtown. How are trucks coming from distribution centres in Brampton, Vaughan or Mississauga supposed to deliver to stores downtown? How are GO buses supposed to get downtown? Lots of other major cities like Tokyo do perfectly well with ugly elevated highways in the downtown core. Most people take the train in downtown Tokyo instead of driving, but truck drivers depend on the highway system to make deliveries.

Manhattan has a major highway running through it. It connects the George Washington Bridge and the Cross-Bronx expressway and is severely congested at all times of day (even though the toll going eastbound on the GWB is very high). In Vancouver, Highway 1 is not that far east of downtown.

 

[MetroMan]

No one did it. It was an earthquake ... not the work of færies or other fantasy creatures.

For the record, I'm an atheist, I was just being facetious. I don't think it'll take an act of God though. Council seems to be doing a pretty good job at ignoring the fact that the thing is falling apart. With city staff in charge of the Gardiner suddenly retiring, I have a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach that they're bailing because they know that something really awful is going to happen and they don't want to be there when it does.

 

[MetroMan]

Toronto may have to make a similar sudden choice. Although it won't be from an earthquake, it'll be from the damn thing falling down on it's own. I'd much rather not have it come to that. The last thing I want to see is something like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-35W_Mississippi_River_bridge

Holy crap!