Roads: Gardiner Expressway

[unimaginative2]

Respectfully, I firmly disagree. I drive Adelaide and Richmond every day. They're speedways. Traffic moves along at the hardly urban speed of 70-80km/h.

I also drove those streets virtually every day, and I can guarantee that the segments downtown do not move at speeds remotely approaching that. Perhaps you're referring to the two or three block section out by the DVP. I also walk across them every day, and I can assure you that they aren't even slightly difficult to cross.

i think the majority of the dislike around the Gardiner is psychological. We remember the gross parts, though hardly even notice the dope bits. The concrete supports beneath the Gardiner west of Jarvis, and into the city centre are beautiful! We should use that as the template for redoing the entire underside.

Of course the dislike is psychological. All dislike is psychological. Yeah, the supports themselves might be beautiful in an abstract sense, but walking under them is hideous. And you can't get rid of the gross parts without also getting rid of the slightly-less-gross parts.

 

[alklay]

Those streets work fine at intersections (where cars seem to stop). I cross them many times a day and there are no issues. Richmond and Adelaide, if anything, suffer from being one way streets.

And if the dislike is psychological (and that is certainly one aspect), then that is just another reason to remove it.

Its a shame that an environmental assessment will take 3- 4 years. I am not sure why such a study takes that long.

 

[TKTKTK]

I also drove those streets virtually every day, and I can guarantee that the segments downtown do not move at speeds remotely approaching that. Perhaps you're referring to the two or three block section out by the DVP. I also walk across them every day, and I can assure you that they aren't even slightly difficult to cross.

I'm not just talking about that part (though that specific area is my neighbourhood), but I don't think that shunting all the Gardiner traffic onto those two streets is going to make anything better. Why do I have to live surrounded by a highway now? Why can't it pass less-obtrusively overhead?

As for the rest of Adelaide and Richmond in the core. The speeds are pretty much the same, but the construction bottlenecks work to decrease it somewhat. Bathurst to University is the same speed as Richmond between the DVP and Church. Once the construction from Bay/Adelaide and Trump finish, it'll go back to 4 lanes of mayhem

Of course the dislike is psychological. All dislike is psychological. Yeah, the supports themselves might be beautiful in an abstract sense, but walking under them is hideous. And you can't get rid of the gross parts without also getting rid of the slightly-less-gross parts.

Well, given it's all elevated, why can't we re-do the shitty concrete supports elsewhere? Why is the only possibility for beautifying the area tied to removing the Gardiner? Why not work to better what we have, rather than hoping something we've never tried will work better?

 

[TKTKTK]

And if the dislike is psychological (and that is certainly one aspect), then that is just another reason to remove it.

Not every psychological dislike is logical, some are just psycho. Why consider irrational reactions?

 

[alklay]

Nothing is irrational about the dislike of the Gardiner. Every waterfront report and study has advocated its removal. What's rational about having an elevated highway in such a prime location?

 

[grey]

Article from The Star today:

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/434236

Teardown an 8-year project

May 30, 2008 01:42 PM
Deena Kamel
Staff Reporter

It will take up to eight years and approximately $ 200-300 million to tear down the East Gardiner Expressway from Jarvis St. to the Don Valley Expressway, including up to five years to conduct an environmental assessment of the project, Waterfront Toronto announced today in a press conference.
On June 12, the Waterfront Toronto board will make a recommendation supporting the East Gardiner tear-down through an individual environmental assessment that will analyze and clarify the technical issues and impacts, Waterfront Toronto Chair Mark Wilson said.

It will also recommend the re-allocation of funds from the Front St. extension to the improvement of the waterfront.

City council will discuss the proposal on July 14 and 15.

Tearing down the eastern stretch of the Gardiner will allow the development of surrounding communities, create high-quality urban design and support new transit initiatives, Wilson said.

The impact on traffic and travel time includes an added 2 minutes from Queen and Woodbine to King and Bay during the morning peak hours and a reduction in travel speed by 12.5 percent, Wilson said. The east end of the Gardiner is the least congested part of the expressway. Repairs cost the city about $6-10 million annually, according to Waterfront Toronto statistics.

"This decision is a decision about the future vision for the city. We need a vision that embraces and leads the global changes we're a part of, not one that tries to preserve patterns and habits of the past," Wilson said. "Taking down the Gardiner is a bold step and a declaration that Toronto is ready to be part of that future."

Waterfront Toronto CEO John Campbell described the project as "realistic and doable now."

Early proposals had raised the idea of tearing down the Gardiner from Spadina Ave.

“We just don't have the funds,†Campbell said of that idea. “It's too big a bite."

hoooooly – 8 years after it gets approved. Of which 5 years, or the equivalent of three municipal council terms, is just the study. And this was proposed back when Toronto tried for the Olympics!@!#$!@ With a Liberal federal government likely to support such projects.



Yeeesh.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I'd support tunnelling the Gardiner, especially if it meant not needing a super-wide boulevard...people are making a case for the boulevard on aesthetic grounds, but Queen's Quay is already a boulevard, so why do we need another one block away?

If they're going to remove the Gardiner, even partially, let's hope they do it sooner rather than later so that future renovations/makeovers don't "justify" keeping it because doing nothing is cheaper and easier. A boulevard could probably handle most of the traffic just fine (and add not much time to commutes) but only if transit is improved to handle drivers punished into taking transit.

As for being a psychological/physical barrier, the Gardiner isn't as bad as some people say, but it's hard, if not impossible, to disagree that the city would be better off without it.

The DRL would have limited impact on this.

How many people coming in from Etobicoke, Mississauga, and points west, would exchange the QEW/Gardiner for the DRL? Likewise, those coming down from North York, Markham, Richmond Hill, etc., are hardly going to switch from the 404/DVP to the DRL.

I support the DRL, btw, but I don't think it has much relevance here.

It - along with GO improvements - is extremely relevant. Many thousands of cars would be taken off the Gardiner simply by improving transit. Pretty much every subway, GO train, streetcar, bus, etc., that serves the core is full and removing the Gardiner without improving transit at the same time could be disastrous.

 

[billonlogan]

I was looking at the Star's diagram and my impression is the Gardiner will still be an expressway to the DVP sitting on a berm beside the rail corridor. It will still be somewhat elevated but further north than its original alignment. The new Gardiner will be probably be just 4 lanes with no other exits. This should alleviate any fears about increased gridlock getting out of downtown to the DVP. Lakeshore Blvd will be realigned into a 4 to 6 lane arterial road with a wide median.

 

[Earlscourt_Lad]

It - along with GO improvements - is extremely relevant. Many thousands of cars would be taken off the Gardiner simply by improving transit. Pretty much every subway, GO train, streetcar, bus, etc., that serves the core is full and removing the Gardiner without improving transit at the same time could be disastrous.

What studies and analysis do you have illustrating that people will switch en masse from driving to the DRL? If it isn't difinitive, and it can't be, hadn't we better plan for at least the status quo when it comes to vehicle numbers? Reducing the capacity of a road, by saying "oh they'll just take the subway" is not a great idea.

I agree that improving transit is a priority, but we can't bank on it diverting large numbers of people from driving.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The status quo is that most subways and GO trains are completely full...they couldn't switch now even if they wanted to.

 

[ShonTron]

hoooooly – 8 years after it gets approved. Of which 5 years, or the equivalent of three municipal council terms, is just the study. And this was proposed back when Toronto tried for the Olympics!@!#$!@ With a Liberal federal government likely to support such projects. Yeeesh.

While at the same time railroading through Transit City projects with minimal study or consultation.

 

[TKTKTK]

Nothing is irrational about the dislike of the Gardiner. Every waterfront report and study has advocated its removal. What's rational about having an elevated highway in such a prime location?

Well, for starters it's not a prime location. It's a former industrial site that we're trying to turn into a prime location. Why not accept the area for what it is and work and plan with that knowledge? The Gardiner has existed longer than plans to reprogram this hood. We've never tried to beautify the Gardiner, and I support trying that before we get rid of the thing altogether.

I understand the desire to gentrify every part of the city, but not everything needs to be torn down to be made better.

I'll miss the Gardiner in my hood if it's ever torn down. You don't want to live near it? Don't move here

 

[Earlscourt_Lad]

The status quo is that most subways and GO trains are completely full...they couldn't switch now even if they wanted to.

Yes, that's true.

Please explain how that relates to the Gardiner, more specifically, how it is you imagine the DRL will relate to the Gardiner using something other than speculation. Like I said, I support the DRL, but it isn't the antidote to the Gardiner, it has more specific in-town and north-south benefits. It may take some of the burden, but hardly enough to impact the 200,000 cars a day currently using the Gardiner. Therefore, I don't see it as a relevant component of any Gardiner removal/rebuilding/etc. ideas. That said, I would be more than happy if you could correct me.

 

[alklay]

Well, for starters it's not a prime location. It's a former industrial site that we're trying to turn into a prime location. Why not accept the area for what it is and work and plan with that knowledge? The Gardiner has existed longer than plans to reprogram this hood. We've never tried to beautify the Gardiner, and I support trying that before we get rid of the thing altogether.

I understand the desire to gentrify every part of the city, but not everything needs to be torn down to be made better.

I'll miss the Gardiner in my hood if it's ever torn down. You don't want to live near it? Don't move here

Well, you have made yourself clear: you are not in favour of redeveloping the waterfront either. At least you are direct about it.

For those who are interested in making this area something other than underused industrial land, and turning it into a 'prime location', getting rid of the Gardiner is key.

 

[Panzerfaust]

The other option for the area west of Jarvis is the Paris-style car-only tunnel that I described in an earlier post. Engineers in Paris are saving a fortune for a new tunnel on the outer Périphérique by reducing the clearance so that only cars are permitted, and thus allowing for six lanes of traffic in one standard-width tube. This would be particularly suited for here, because truck traffic isn't a major factor on the Gardiner.

Truck traffic may not be a major factor, but what about GO Bus traffic? According to the schedules I have on hand, 11 GO routes run on the Gardiner. If it were buried and turned into car only tunnels, the GO service would be severely slowed, as they'd have to deal with downtown traffic and stop lights the whole way to Union Station once the above-ground portion of the highway ends (wherever that may be). This also rules out any future express TTC operation that may be created in the future. If the Gardiner is buried, it has to be built to normal specifications.