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Roads: Gardiner Expressway

TheTigerMaster said:
Why has staff recommended against deferral?
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Time is running out. The East Gardiner needs to either be taken down or rebuilt. The status quo won't last for long. I don't recall the exact number but in under 5 years, parts of the Gardiner East will need to start being shut down because they're not safe. Staff needs the decision right now because they need time to to start planning for its eventual replacement.
 
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MetroMan said:
A deferral would be a defeat for John Tory. He still has a grasp (barely) of what appears to be a majority of city council but he's lost a lot of goodwill from the other side. He's burned significant political capital that he'll desperately need to get SmartTrack built. This all demonstrates how Tory is just a lousy politician. His poor intuition regularly puts him on the wrong side of both public and political support.

Compared to what he just put himself though, it would've been relatively easy to sit down with each councillor and find compromise options. Instead, he started a needless war that has significant public opposition.
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Based on his poor political track record, I never had high expectations of Tory's performance as mayor. But I must admit that even I'm surprised about how quickly he's crashed and burned. He's certainly less effective at implementing his agenda than Mayor Ford at this point in his tenure. I don't expect Tory to have much success at implementing his agenda over the next 3.5 years. When it's all said and done, he'll likely be recognized as one of Toronto's least effective mayors.

To be fair to Tory, be arguably is working with a more challenging Council than any other recent mayor. After the year or so where we didn't have mayoral leadership, Council learned that they don't need to look to the mayor for leadership. Our mayor's office wields less power over the city than ever.
 
arcum said:
Developers have way too much power when it comes to these sorts of things.

John Tory raises a good point: development has flourished next to the Gardiner west of Yonge, so why would east of Yonge be any different?
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DSC said:
Because the road and new ramps go right through the vacant land at the "Home Depot lands" - between Cherry & Parliament - and the road runs along the Keating Channel which has the potential to be prime residential land..
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If you have seen the rest of downtown, you'll learn that it's not so nice. The east gardiner will be no different. It it just a piece of the problem of downtown between Yonge and the Don.
 
MetroMan said:
Time is running out. The East Gardiner needs to either be taken down or rebuilt. The status quo won't last for long. I don't recall the exact number but in under 5 years, parts of the Gardiner East will need to start being shut down because they're not safe. Staff needs the decision right now because they need time to to start planning for its eventual replacement.
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Pardon quoting myself but to finish this thought...

If by some miracle the Boulevard option is voted on and Tory accepts it, things will move very quickly. It's possible that we could start seeing the Gardiner East being dismantled before the next election given its urgent state of disrepair and its potential to turn into a sizzeling political hot potato. Construction either way won't be painless though I suspect the Boulevard option will be easier to implement. Widening Lakeshore can be done independent of any work on the elevated Gardiner. Lakeshore will need to be closed in sections but the Gardiner can operate as usual until it's ready to be taken down.

denfromoakvillemilton said:
If you have seen the rest of downtown, you'll learn that it's not so nice. The east gardiner will be no different. It it just a piece of the problem of downtown between Yonge and the Don.
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It's not in the Boulevard proponents' interest to bring this up but removing the Eastern Gardiner would be the beginning of dismantling the Gardiner through downtown as well. If a Boulevard can be proven successful, the section between Jarvis and Spadina would be a good candidate for further dismantling. Contrary to what most would think, this has the potential to improve traffic downtown because entry/exit points would no longer be limited to just a few ramps. It's those bottlenecks that create gridlock on the Gardiner and on the streets that access it.
 
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DSC said:
Because the road and new ramps go right through the vacant land at the "Home Depot lands" - between Cherry & Parliament - and the road runs along the Keating Channel which has the potential to be prime residential land..
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The west side has ramps too. Tory's point still stands.

I don't know if I would describe the mouth of the Don as "prime residential land". Maybe "reclaimed land that condos can be built upon".
 
MetroMan said:
Pardon quoting myself but to finish this thought...

If by some miracle the Boulevard option is voted on and Tory accepts it, things will move very quickly. It's possible that we could start seeing the Gardiner East being dismantled before the next election given its urgent state of disrepair and its potential to turn into a sizzeling political hot potato. Construction either way won't be painless though I suspect the Boulevard option will be easier to implement. Widening Lakeshore can be done independent of any work on the elevated Gardiner. Lakeshore will need to be closed in sections but the Gardiner can operate as usual until it's ready to be taken down.



It's not in the Boulevard proponents' interest to bring this up but removing the Eastern Gardiner would be the beginning of dismantling the Gardiner through downtown as well. If a Boulevard can be proven successful, the section between Jarvis and Spadina would be a good candidate for further dismantling. Contrary to what most would think, this has the potential to improve traffic downtown because entry/exit points would no longer be limited to just a few ramps. It's those bottlenecks that create gridlock on the Gardiner and on the streets that access it.
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The Gardiner west of Jarvis moves significantly more people than Gardiner east. Is there any planning justification for removing it?
 
arcum said:
The west side has ramps too. Tory's point still stands.

I don't know if I would describe the mouth of the Don as "prime residential land". Maybe "reclaimed land that condos can be built upon".
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I would. This city is changing rapidly. Real estate is, more than ever, all about location. The mouth of the Don is perched just to the east of the CBD. People are opting to move to the core in ever greater numbers. Anything with a decent view of the lake will be pounced on.

The reclaimed land bit merely means they have to go deeper to anchor to bedrock. Because of surging demand, they'll go there.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
He's performing worse than Ford at this point.
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Perhaps crash and burn is too strong a term. But I will say his performance has been lacking.

Tory's struggle to get council on his side this early in his term might be a reflection of him not wanting to expend too much political capital on this issue. SmartTrack and SSE are much bigger issues that he'll need Council's cooperation on.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
Perhaps crash and burn is too strong a term. But I will say his performance has been lacking.

Tory's struggle to get council on his side this early in his term might be a reflection of him not wanting to expend too much political capital on this issue. SmartTrack and SSE are much bigger issues that he'll need Council's cooperation on.
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It's questionable at best whether or not he'll get that support. It's somewhat unprecedented to have council turning against the mayor in a flagship issue so early in the term.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
SmartTrack and SSE are much bigger issues that he'll need Council's cooperation on.
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He doesn't have much riding on the SSE. It's not his plan, like the Finch LRT and Sheppard East LRT he won't do much to stop it - but he won't do much if others stop it. If suddenly the costs spiral, and council seem on board with killing it, I expect he'll just ride along with it.
 
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