Roads: Gardiner Expressway

[Grimace]

Does the City keep records of how many cars use our avenues at peak hour? I'd like to compare that to the Gardiner East.

Yes they do. I looked for them last time we had this discussion, can't remember where I found them. There are maps with peak traffic plugged in. The Gardiner East/Lakeshore combo has low traffic for a highway, high traffic for a boulevard. But I firmly believe that if the boulevard is designed like Lakeshore between Jameson and the ramp to the Gardiner, but with better signal coordination and serious restrictions on cross traffic (at least during rush hour) it will have minimal impact on traffic.

 

[BurlOak]

A-D is forecast to be 50 minutes in 2031 if they keep the way it is, 55 minutes if they replace it, and 60 minutes if they remove it.

You can't compare to 2012.

What I want to see is travel times from B to E and C to E.

How will "replace" lead to a longer time than "maintain". Are they replacing it with a 2 lane (total) freeway?

 

[nfitz]

How will "replace" lead to a longer time than "maintain". Are they replacing it with a 2 lane (total) freeway?

Dunno ... where IS this report? It seems the entire media have it, but no link for it?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

That $900,000,000 will have to be done all over again (with inflation increasing those numbers) in another 25 to 50 years. And that's just for that section east of Jarvis.

Is that true? What's the expected longevity of the thing? No infrastructure lasts forever.

 

[hawc]

Cars will continue to dominate the city for the next 50 years for sure.

Good!

 

[BurlOak]

Is that true? What's the expected longevity of the thing? No infrastructure lasts forever.

In the 1950's and 60's, the design was for 50 years - although usually go 60 to 70 years out of it. Current codes design for 75 years, although there is talk of going up to 100 years.

I didn't read the report on where the $900M came from - but it would probably be the life cycle cost - ie. all costs for the life of the bridge.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Dunno ... where IS this report? It seems the entire media have it, but no link for it?

It's coming out tomorrow.

 

[hawc]

Tearing down a section of one of only two highways into the downtown of a major city is absurd. The claim that there will be "only" 10 minutes delay assumes that the downtown relief line and GO improvements and waterfront streetcars will be built.

Exactly. It's nuts to think you can un-join two major highways and not cause traffic chaos. Now I know most people on Urban Toronto ride longboards and unicycles to their government jobs, but for real Torontonians with cars its nice when the highways that those cars are driven on, oh I don't know, connect? The Gardiner and the 427 connect. The 427 and the 401 connect. the 401 and the DVP connect. None of those end and dump all their traffic on to city streets before ramping them all back up on to and elevated section. It's insane to think you'd disconnect the DVP from the Gardiner. It's not a war on cars, it's a war on common sense. Not everyone wants to hopscotch to work.

 

[hawc]

Those on the DVP will still be able to use Richmond/Adelaide to access downtown. The only ones grossly inconvenienced who use the DVP/Gardiner to get downtown are those who use the DVP, and work south of the tracks, in the Yonge/Bay area. And there's really not that many of them.

So what happens to all the traffic headed south on the DVP once it's south of Richmond/Adelaide? Does it all just get dumped onto the Lakeshore right at the Don Roadway a la Allen Expressway at Eglinton? Just one massive line up of cars waiting to make a left or right on to Lakeshore. If you operate on the principle that cars are evil so f*ck 'em let's make it as miserable as possible to get around then I guess that's a great solution, but it's really no solution at all. And the Yonge/Bay area you say is lightly populated is getting more and more densely crowded all the time. There are massive developments going in there. They're not all going to want to talk the Queens Quay to work. Again though if cars are evil it's hard to have a reasonable conversation about how to accommodate them properly.

 

[11th]

So I'm looking at the traffic conditions on google maps in the height of rush hour as I wait for my bus to come. Highways all over the GTA are a complete cluster f right now (as always) except for the east part of the Gardiner expressway. U know what, just tear it down already. Carmageddon did not materialize when dozens of other cities around the world demolished their urban highways, and it's not gonna happen here either.

I thought those traffic layers on the map shows the speed of traffic, not volume? You can have 401 showing green, but that only means the cars are moving near the speed limit.

 

[CapitalSeven]

The presentations from about a year ago show a ramp curving from the DVP, across the river, and coming down in the middle of Lakeshore as it runs north of the Keating Channel. In other words, a typical highway ramp.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It's not a war on cars, it's a war on common sense. Not everyone wants to hopscotch to work.

We do not make infrastructure decision based on "common sense". Common sense does not trump empirical data.

 

[hawc]

We do not make infrastructure decision based on "common sense". Common sense does not trump empirical data.

Unfortunately, there is no such thing as 'empirical data'. Data is manipulated by all sides to fit agendas.

 

[JWBF]

Exactly. It's nuts to think you can un-join two major highways and not cause traffic chaos. Now I know most people on Urban Toronto ride longboards and unicycles to their government jobs, but for real Torontonians with cars its nice when the highways that those cars are driven on, oh I don't know, connect? The Gardiner and the 427 connect. The 427 and the 401 connect. the 401 and the DVP connect. None of those end and dump all their traffic on to city streets before ramping them all back up on to and elevated section. It's insane to think you'd disconnect the DVP from the Gardiner. It's not a war on cars, it's a war on common sense. Not everyone wants to hopscotch to work.

Rubbish. There is no need to disconnect the routes.

Again though if cars are evil it's hard to have a reasonable conversation about how to accommodate them properly.

Cars are sometimes driven as tools, and sometimes they are just driven by tools.

Unfortunately, there is no such thing as 'empirical data'. Data is manipulated by all sides to fit agendas.

Data does not change, just the interpretations... and as for inductive logic, well...

 

[nfitz]

Exactly. It's nuts to think you can un-join two major highways and not cause traffic chaos. Now I know most people on Urban Toronto ride longboards and unicycles to their government jobs, but for real Torontonians ...

Most people going downtown don't drive now. Of those that do, only a fraction are using that short piece of Gardiner east of Jarvis.

Something has to happen, that piece of Gardiner is grossly over-built, and in the wrong place. It's 8 lanes wide, while the busier (much longer) piece of Gardiner to the west, is only 6 lanes wide, but carries 2-3 times more traffic. Most of the traffic on the Gardiner goes onto the DVP, which is only 4 lanes wide.

The King streetcar carries more people in rush hour than that piece of Gardiner! It's really not that significant. It's most useful for those not heading into downtown, but those using the Gardiner to traverse downtown without stopping. Surely it's in everyone's benefit to discourage those coming down the DVP from Eglinton, and instead go the other way round!

Now, as I live near point A on the map, it will affect me on my regular business trips to Mississauga and points west ... though likely no where near as much as the endless Gardiner reconstruction that's been going on for the last year or so ...