Roads: Gardiner Expressway catch-all, incl. Hybrid Design (2015-onwards)

[innsertnamehere]

Just underscores how much more important transit is vs. the Gardiner if a limited service commuter rail system carries more than a highway that operates 24/7, 362 days a year.

The Gardiner is also only 1 out of two downtown Freeways - the DVP carries similar (albeit slightly lower) numbers.

Also, a lot of Gardiner traffic splits off and take Lakeshore into the City instead, so it depends where they are measuring the Gardiner traffic, but there is a lot more traffic coming in there too.

Transit modal shares in the downtown as a whole are around 80-85% from what I remember, but the majority of the transit use is ultimately still TTC travel, particularly from downtown-adjacent areas.

The Gardiner and DVP remain critical for "regional" type trips in and around Downtown, specifically, for events, etc. The vast majority of commuters use transit. GO Expansion should help shift some of these regional trips to transit, but the Gardiner / DVP will always be important in getting goods and people into and out of the downtown.

 

[evandyk]

The Gardiner and DVP remain critical for "regional" type trips in and around Downtown, specifically, for events, etc. The vast majority of commuters use transit. GO Expansion should help shift some of these regional trips to transit, but the Gardiner / DVP will always be important in getting goods and people into and out of the downtown.

Which is exactly why it should be tolled.

 

[turbanplanner]

Which is exactly why it should be tolled.

Tolls *might* have made sense when the only funding source was property tax, but now the MTO is taking over it there's a snowballs chance in hell of that.

The pro transit Wynne liberals didn't approve tolls, I don't see them happening in our lifetime!

 

[innsertnamehere]

Which is exactly why it should be tolled.

I've never disputed a toll on the DVP / Gardiner, especially going into downtown.

As @turbanplanner correctly notes however - there is basically no chance of it as it plays terribly in 905 election circles critical to provincial politicians.

 

[Dan416]

I'm a 905 driver, but I don't drive downtown because the Gardiner is hell. I can't even comprehend how/why people put themselves through that.

Maybe they *should* toll it just to make it function a bit better. I'm not suggesting 407-level tolls though. Just to make work better both for drivers and GO buses (I despise being stuck on a Milton bus on the Gardiner watching the Lakeshore train quickly pass by even though it left later than the bus).

 

[T3G]

I'm a 905 driver, but I don't drive downtown because the Gardiner is hell. I can't even comprehend how/why people put themselves through that.

Maybe they *should* toll it just to make it function a bit better. I'm not suggesting 407-level tolls though. Just to make work better both for drivers and GO buses (I despise being stuck on a Milton bus on the Gardiner watching the Lakeshore train quickly pass by even though it left later than the bus).

I really can't fathom the stupidity of sending the 21 back into heavy Gardiner traffic just to save 1 minute of walking at Oakville GO.

 

[kotsy]

Girder installation has almost reached the East end, with 7 more sections to go.
The concrete road deck has reached the Ex GO entrance.

 

[Aplus23]

The only instant solution is to make the 407 free or at least make the truckers use it for free.
Our hwy system is similar to our transit line

We have 1 east-west transit line/hwy in use that's overcrowded
We have another east-west transit line that's not open to the public & we have east west highway that's only open to the public that can afford it. (407)
We have one hwy going north south thru the downtown core, & we have one transit n/a transit line thru the downtown core, well two trunks I guess.

At least we are building a transit line, but for drivers, this is the new norm.

 

[nfitz]

The only instant solution is to make the 407 free or at least make the truckers use it for free.

I don't think that making it free, is going to make anyone who relies on the 407 now very happy. It removes the only way to get from (say) Pickering to Hamilton without taking twice as long.

I'm not even sure that it will reduce congestion much - if a highway is full at peak, and flowing very well, then it's carrying more people than if it breaks down like the 401, and turns into a traffic jam. And it's surely going to carry even less people if it were free - at least at the peak of rush hour.

Moving trucks to 407 might work a bit. But they aren't much of the problem at the height of peak on the 401. Seems to me there's less big trucks on 401 at rush-hour than mid-day.

 

[darth_freeman]

Induced demand is real, until the NDP starts talking about making 407 free, then it's all sunshine and rainbows.

 

[afransen]

I don't think that making it free, is going to make anyone who relies on the 407 now very happy. It removes the only way to get from (say) Pickering to Hamilton without taking twice as long.

I'm not even sure that it will reduce congestion much - if a highway is full at peak, and flowing very well, then it's carrying more people than if it breaks down like the 401, and turns into a traffic jam. And it's surely going to carry even less people if it were free - at least at the peak of rush hour.

Moving trucks to 407 might work a bit. But they aren't much of the problem at the height of peak on the 401. Seems to me there's less big trucks on 401 at rush-hour than mid-day.

The answer is tolls. We will be dragged kicking and screaming to that conclusion, but it is the only thing that can and will meaningfully help.

 

[zang]

The only instant solution is to make the 407 free or at least make the truckers use it for free.

Good luck with that. The 407's not going to ever even the chance to be free for about what? Another 65 years? It's a cash cow for the consortium that currently "owns" it.

 

[zang]

I don't think that making it free, is going to make anyone who relies on the 407 now very happy. It removes the only way to get from (say) Pickering to Hamilton without taking twice as long.

I'm not even sure that it will reduce congestion much - if a highway is full at peak, and flowing very well, then it's carrying more people than if it breaks down like the 401, and turns into a traffic jam. And it's surely going to carry even less people if it were free - at least at the peak of rush hour.

Moving trucks to 407 might work a bit. But they aren't much of the problem at the height of peak on the 401. Seems to me there's less big trucks on 401 at rush-hour than mid-day.

Many trucks already use the 407 anyhow.

Trucks aren't what cause congestion though. Most drivers are pretty competent and safe. It's the single-occupant-vehicles that are almost always the problem.

The great irony of car culture is that improving things for those drivers almost always leads to worse outcomes.

 

[Undead]

Lotta bad CVORs out there. On a few recent trips out of the city on the 400, I saw a bunch of 18 wheelers weaving in and out of the second lane. Massive trucks overtaking a Chevy Spark going 105 so the truck can go... 106.

Most drivers are pretty competent and safe.

 

[zang]

Lotta bad CVORs out there. On a few recent trips out of the city on the 400, I saw a bunch of 18 wheelers weaving in and out of the second lane. Massive trucks overtaking a Chevy Spark going 105 so the truck can go... 106.

Perhaps I should have added "…relative to car drivers."?

But with speed limit governors and sheer amount of experience, I will say that truck drivers by and large drive more conservatively and are less likely to cause the types of problems that lead to a traffic slowdown.