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Roads: Gardiner Expressway catch-all, incl. Hybrid Design (2015-onwards)

hawc said:
Huh. I defer to you because you know this stuff much better than me, but I'm really surprised to hear you say the percentage of drivers going west/east at the bottom of the DVP is less than 20%.

So all that southbound traffic on the DVP doesn't continue westbound across the Gardiner?

Where does it go? It doesn't all exit at River. It surely doesn't all get off at Bayview/Bloor.

There is a tremendous amount of southbound traffic on the DVP and I've always seen it continue along the Gardiner Westbound.

Are you saying it doesn't?
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According to studies Waterfront Toronto has done, southbound DVP traffic are heading to Yonge/Spadina with some going west part way and the remainder going beyond 427,

If the Gardiner came down to Yonge, the DVP traffic would use the Lake Shore and get back on the Gardiner at Yonge to carry on west.
 
drum118 said:
According to studies Waterfront Toronto has done, southbound DVP traffic are heading to Yonge/Spadina with some going west part way and the remainder going beyond 427,

If the Gardiner came down to Yonge, the DVP traffic would use the Lake Shore and get back on the Gardiner at Yonge to carry on west.
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If coming or going beyond the 427, then they are using the Gardiner and Don Valley for free. The Gardiner and Don Valley are paid by Toronto's property taxes, unlike the 400 series of highways, which are paid by the gasoline taxes and general venue. Toronto wants to put road tolls on them, so that the 905ers can pay for it, but were vetoed by the province.
 
max said:
Thanks for that, didn't remember that in all the Gardiner replacement scenarios the Logan ramps were always being eliminated in favour of locating ramps on the west side of the Don.
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There was a whole series of options before that. That's just the final options after they'd decided to simply connect the DIV to the Gardiner. Some options didn't retain a ramp to Lake Shore. Some options didn't even connect the DVP to the Gardiner. Also, they did select option 3, but they have changed the design some since then.


hawc said:
Hmmm.... that's just not my experience at all.

The SB DVP always jams up as it ramps on to the Gardiner in the morning rush hour and even in the evening rush hour the Gardiner often jams up all the way back to the DVP and is quite busy.
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True - but a lot of that is the merge with Lake Shore, and some drivers then trying to cross-over to get off at Jarvis. I haven't driven it in AM peak since the ramp closure, but I'd think that would be flowing better now that people are only getting on at Jarvis. And even after the new ramps are there, I'd think that there'd be less westbound traffic from Lake Shore, even bothering to get on at Cherry to get off at Jarvis. I wonder if they'll design it so that's not even possible - as it's probably not necessary.
 
hawc said:
Hmmm.... that's just not my experience at all.

The SB DVP always jams up as it ramps on to the Gardiner in the morning rush hour and even in the evening rush hour the Gardiner often jams up all the way back to the DVP and is quite busy.




I agree that EB on the Gardiner once you pass Jarvis is pretty sparse (so good to tear down the Logan ramp) but I think the majority of the SB DVP traffic ramps on to the Gardiner WB rather than exists at Richmond.


But maybe my perception is all wrong. Weird though, because I drive it every day.
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I agree. I drive there every single day and also live in the area. Anything to the contrary is rather over simplification of the actual situation "on the ground". While I hate Gardiner and would rather see it go, I think that if it's not replaced by proper wide-spread transit or other commuting options, we would have more and more issues getting around this city.
 
fanoftoronto said:
Echoing @Northern Light above. Yes, most of the traffic exits off at Bayview/Bloor and at Richmond. This is the reason the Gardner between DVP and Jarvis is extremely empty with 100km/h speeds even during peak traffic. The number of cars definitely does not justify the ramps between DVP and Gardiner. That traffic, if routed through Lake Shore for that 1 to 2 km stretch, would see a very negligible increase in travel time, while also vastly improving the public realm of Lake Shore blvd in the area.

Alas, the plan to demo the Gardiner at that section was thrown out the window in 2015 by City Council. I'll take some solace in that Hybrid Option 3 which is currently what we are building, is a vast improvement over the current status quo.
  • Gardiner is routed much north of the current alignment which opens up the most amount of development space while keeping the ramps between DVP and Gardiner.
  • The lakeshore promenade and boardwalk are now fully open and free to be developed and incorporated with the rest of the Waterfront.
  • Lake Shore Blvd has direct sun again as the Gardiner will be routed further North, creating a more inviting feeling for the blvd in general.
See below for the 3 Hybrid options discussed. Hybrid 1 is basically the same Gardiner alignment as we currently have. Hybrid 3 is what we are going to ultimately end up with.
View attachment 349063

Image taken from this presentation:
Gardiner East Gardiner Expressway & Lake Shore Boulevard Reconfiguration Environmental Assessment & Urban Design Study
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Would no ramps really open up that much space though.

The expanded don mouth as seen above taking up a lot of space.

What is not show however is the expansion of the rail yard above. That is going to take up much of the space between the yard and the trail.

I agree and support having no ramps at all, just questioning this statement of losing so much development space.
 
reteequa said:
Would no ramps really open up that much space though.

The expanded don mouth as seen above taking up a lot of space.

What is not show however is the expansion of the rail yard above. That is going to take up much of the space between the yard and the trail.

I agree and support having no ramps at all, just questioning this statement of losing so much development space.
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You are correct, the current Hybrid 3 option does maximize the development potential. We might not be losing any land overall.

My point is more general feeling underneath the viaduct. The Lake Shore Blvd would feel more open without any ramps going above it.
And also, the noise would be more with cars and trucks zipping above at 100-110km/h when compared with having no ramps.
 
hawc said:
Hmmm.... that's just not my experience at all.

The SB DVP always jams up as it ramps on to the Gardiner in the morning rush hour and even in the evening rush hour the Gardiner often jams up all the way back to the DVP and is quite busy.

View attachment 349069


I agree that EB on the Gardiner once you pass Jarvis is pretty sparse (so good to tear down the Logan ramp) but I think the majority of the SB DVP traffic ramps on to the Gardiner WB rather than exists at Richmond.


But maybe my perception is all wrong. Weird though, because I drive it every day.
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Honestly, I don't drive that route during rush-hour. I'm basing my information on reports done on the Gardiner stating that the traffic seen between Jarvis and DVP can easily be absorbed by an expanded and at-grade Lake Shore Blvd with minimal impact to travel times.

I'll try to find these reports if possible to clear up this question. Kinda difficult to search for old reports regarding the Gardiner east right now coz most of the results are focused on the removal of the Logan ramps. 🤣
 
EastYorkTTCFan said:
When has traffic ever been at that speed on the Gardner expressway? I don't think it's even rated for that it's not a 400 series highway.
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The speed on the DVP and the elevated section of the Gardiner is set as 90 km/h, but cars are usually driving at or above 100 km/h in that stretch due to the reduced traffic and ample number of lanes.
 
fanoftoronto said:
The speed on the DVP and the elevated section of the Gardiner is set as 90 km/h, but cars are usually driving at or above 100 km/h in that stretch due to the reduced traffic and ample number of lanes.
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What time of day is that as every time I've seen the Gardner no body is doing anything near 90 heck you'd be lucky if you could do over 20
 
EastYorkTTCFan said:
When has traffic ever been at that speed on the Gardner expressway? I don't think it's even rated for that it's not a 400 series highway.
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I guess you don't drive the expressway much??`

It common to be pass doing 100 on any part of the expressway when traffic is light or free flowing. It common to see drivers weave in and out of traffic doing more than 120. Even the DVP sees the same thing. Been one of those drivers doing 100-110 from time to time, but try to do the 90 most of the time.

I refused to use the expressway between Yonge and the Humber at peak due to the dumb drivers on it as well the DVP.

These days which is rare, if I am driving in the core, I want to be on the road by 3 pm or wait until 7 pm. Been a few cases been on the road between those time and regret doing it. To me, its to stressful to drive on any road at peak time and try not to do it. One of the main reason for giving up the car full time.
 
drum118 said:
I guess you don't drive the expressway much??`

It common to be pass doing 100 on any part of the expressway when traffic is light or free flowing. It common to see drivers weave in and out of traffic doing more than 120. Even the DVP sees the same thing. Been one of those drivers doing 100-110 from time to time, but try to do the 90 most of the time.

I refused to use the expressway between Yonge and the Humber at peak due to the dumb drivers on it as well the DVP.

These days which is rare, if I am driving in the core, I want to be on the road by 3 pm or wait until 7 pm. Been a few cases been on the road between those time and regret doing it. To me, its to stressful to drive on any road at peak time and try not to do it. One of the main reason for giving up the car full time.
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I don't drive but I have been on the Gardner expressway many times. I was thinking more of the downtown section then the section west of the exabition towards the QEW.
 
EastYorkTTCFan said:
I don't drive but I have been on the Gardner expressway many times. I was thinking more of the downtown section then the section west of the exabition towards the QEW.
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I am talking about it also, more going east than west.
 
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