Roads: Gardiner Expressway catch-all, incl. Hybrid Design (2015-onwards)

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I'm not saying that redesign isnt a good thing, because it is.

What i'm saying is that having some typical Toronto standard condos lined up along a boulevard doesnt make it anything out of the ordinary of special. The waterfront promenade/trail, green space to west of the Don, and Parliament slip are pretty much the only unique things we're getting out of this section of the waterfront. Not insignificant, but it's nothing majestic either.

The most "majestic" thing isn't this realignment - but the completely new river valley/Villiers Island.

AoD

 

[drum118]

That re-design looks amazing, finally Toronto is on the path to having a world class waterfront for all. Just would hate to be on that end when they take that section down to reconnect to the DVP that could take some serious closures for sure.

Toronto world class waterfront went out the window stating early 2000 and this removal of the expressway is no help. Been to other cities where their waterfront are being redevelop and away ahead of ours. I have never been happy with what was being built since 2004 and doesn't even come close to what was plan on being built the, Density is some where between 10-20 times more than plan so far and climbing.

There is no real need for the expressway east of Yonge. Look at cites that have removed their expressway that carry more than ours to see how well they are today with it gone. Only have to look at the York-Bay-Yonge ramp that was removed a number of years ago to see how better we are off with it gone. Love Park is to replace the York ramp now with no reminder that it exist there at one time.

Flood protection is the best thing to come from this mess.

 

[hawc]

There is no real need for the expressway east of Yonge.

Okay, so you'd have all the DVP southbound traffic empty on to surface streets (like the Queensway exit at the bottom of the 427) and then go back up on to the Gardiner westbound around Yonge?

 

[Amare]

The most "majestic" thing isn't this realignment - but the completely new river valley/Villiers Island.

AoD

In my mind, I group the new Villiers Island/Portland area as part of its own project separate from the Gardiner re-alignment. But if we're talking about them as part of one big project, then sure i'd agree with that assessment.

 

[tstormers]

Okay, so you'd have all the DVP southbound traffic empty on to surface streets (like the Queensway exit at the bottom of the 427) and then go back up on to the Gardiner westbound around Yonge?

Or worse the Allen Rd exit at Eglinton!! The connection is smooth and the view driving on a highway through such tall buildings is unmatched through most cities in the world. I personally love it every time I am up there (Daily). I also am a big fan of the new river and flood protection measures taken. It may not be world class (disappointing to say the least), but it is better than what we currently have which is a step in a better direction.

Construction sucks, but it means our local economy is not static, which is good.

 

[drum118]

Okay, so you'd have all the DVP southbound traffic empty on to surface streets (like the Queensway exit at the bottom of the 427) and then go back up on to the Gardiner westbound around Yonge?

The percent of drivers going west/east off/on the DVP is less than 20%. For about 6,000 drivers, we need the expressway at major cost to keep it in repair is a waste of money. If I had my choice going east from 427 to east of Toronto, use the 427/401 route.

To find where drivers are coming from or to, you need to get plate number of all vehicles at each on/off ramp from Mississauga to Picking as well north of Steeles for 2 weeks to get real numbers as well who is using it.

 

[tstormers]

The percent of drivers going west/east off/on the DVP is less than 20%. For about 6,000 drivers, we need the expressway at major cost to keep it in repair is a waste of money. If I had my choice going east from 427 to east of Toronto, use the 427/401 route.

To find where drivers are coming from or to, you need to get plate number of all vehicles at each on/off ramp from Mississauga to Picking as well north of Steeles for 2 weeks to get real numbers as well who is using it.

I'd say depends on where you are going in the East end. I never take the 401 from 427 anymore, just way too much traffic and the top portion of the DVP (both ways) is like a parking lot almost all day. coming from Mississauga I take the Gardiner every time to East York (Woodbine North). Even into Scarborough South along Kingston would be better than 401 across and down.

 

[EnviroTO]

Yes, the whole point is not the moving of the Gardiner to DVP ramp but the environment it improves around the Keating Channel and new Don River. By moving the Gardiner and Lake Shore away, the Keating Promenade, Villiers Park, the river, and the bike trails become much more inviting. Sitting on a patio along the Keating Channel looking at the Gardiner listening to trucks bounce off the seams of the elevated freeway is not going to make this a place people want to go.

 

[hawc]

The percent of drivers going west/east off/on the DVP is less than 20%.

Huh. I defer to you because you know this stuff much better than me, but I'm really surprised to hear you say the percentage of drivers going west/east at the bottom of the DVP is less than 20%.

So all that southbound traffic on the DVP doesn't continue westbound across the Gardiner?

Where does it go? It doesn't all exit at River. It surely doesn't all get off at Bayview/Bloor.

There is a tremendous amount of southbound traffic on the DVP and I've always seen it continue along the Gardiner Westbound.

Are you saying it doesn't?

 

[Northern Light]

Huh. I defer to you because you know this stuff much better than me, but I'm really surprised to hear you say the percentage of drivers going west/east at the bottom of the DVP is less than 20%.

So all that southbound traffic on the DVP doesn't continue westbound across the Gardiner?

Where does it go? It doesn't all exit at River. It surely doesn't all get off at Bayview/Bloor.

There is a tremendous amount of southbound traffic on the DVP and I've always seen it continue along the Gardiner Westbound.

Are you saying it doesn't?

The SB commuter traffic on the DVP mostly exists at Richmond/Eastern

Very little goes through/west of downtown.

 

[EddyMCD]

The SB commuter traffic on the DVP mostly exists at Richmond/Eastern

Very little goes through/west of downtown.

Anybody who's destination is North of the Gardiner likely gets off at Richmond as long as they aren't going too far west. Anybody who is going somewhere south (Queens Quay) will continue passed the Richmond exit. Also people who are going to the western edge of downtown (Cityplace, Fort York, Liberty Village etc.) would also go from DVP to Gardiner.

As someone who used to take this route daily, there was definitely a lot of traffic on the WB Gardiner before the Jarvis ramp. I'm not sure how much of it was coming from the DVP vs. Lake Shore East.

 

[fanoftoronto]

Huh. I defer to you because you know this stuff much better than me, but I'm really surprised to hear you say the percentage of drivers going west/east at the bottom of the DVP is less than 20%.

So all that southbound traffic on the DVP doesn't continue westbound across the Gardiner?

Where does it go? It doesn't all exit at River. It surely doesn't all get off at Bayview/Bloor.

There is a tremendous amount of southbound traffic on the DVP and I've always seen it continue along the Gardiner Westbound.

Are you saying it doesn't?

Echoing @Northern Light above. Yes, most of the traffic exits off at Bayview/Bloor and at Richmond. This is the reason the Gardner between DVP and Jarvis is extremely empty with 100km/h speeds even during peak traffic. The number of cars definitely does not justify the ramps between DVP and Gardiner. That traffic, if routed through Lake Shore for that 1 to 2 km stretch, would see a very negligible increase in travel time, while also vastly improving the public realm of Lake Shore blvd in the area.

Alas, the plan to demo the Gardiner at that section was thrown out the window in 2015 by City Council. I'll take some solace in that Hybrid Option 3 which is currently what we are building, is a vast improvement over the current status quo.

• Gardiner is routed much north of the current alignment which opens up the most amount of development space while keeping the ramps between DVP and Gardiner.
• The lakeshore promenade and boardwalk are now fully open and free to be developed and incorporated with the rest of the Waterfront.
• Lake Shore Blvd has direct sun again as the Gardiner will be routed further North, creating a more inviting feeling for the blvd in general.

See below for the 3 Hybrid options discussed. Hybrid 1 is basically the same Gardiner alignment as we currently have. Hybrid 3 is what we are going to ultimately end up with.

Image taken from this presentation:
Gardiner East Gardiner Expressway & Lake Shore Boulevard Reconfiguration Environmental Assessment & Urban Design Study

 

[max]

Echoing @Northern Light above. Yes, most of the traffic exits off at Bayview/Bloor and at Richmond. This is the reason the Gardner between DVP and Jarvis is extremely empty with 100km/h speeds even during peak traffic. The number of cars definitely does not justify the ramps between DVP and Gardiner. That traffic, if routed through Lake Shore for that 1 to 2 km stretch, would see a very negligible increase in travel time, while also vastly improving the public realm of Lake Shore blvd in the area.

Alas, the plan to demo the Gardiner at that section was thrown out the window in 2015 by City Council. I'll take some solace in that Hybrid Option 3 which is currently what we are building, is a vast improvement over the current status quo.

• Gardiner is routed much north of the current alignment which opens up the most amount of development space while keeping the ramps between DVP and Gardiner.
• The lakeshore promenade and boardwalk are now fully open and free to be developed and incorporated with the rest of the Waterfront.
• Lake Shore Blvd has direct sun again as the Gardiner will be routed further North, creating a more inviting feeling for the blvd in general.

See below for the 3 Hybrid options discussed. Hybrid 1 is basically the same Gardiner alignment as we currently have. Hybrid 3 is what we are going to ultimately end up with.
View attachment 349063

Image taken from this presentation:
Gardiner East Gardiner Expressway & Lake Shore Boulevard Reconfiguration Environmental Assessment & Urban Design Study

Thanks for that, didn't remember that in all the Gardiner replacement scenarios the Logan ramps were always being eliminated in favour of locating ramps on the west side of the Don.

 

[hawc]

Most of the traffic exits off at Bayview/Bloor and at Richmond. This is the reason the Gardner between DVP and Jarvis is extremely empty with 100km/h speeds even during peak traffic. The number of cars definitely does not justify the ramps between DVP and Gardiner.

Hmmm.... that's just not my experience at all.

The SB DVP always jams up as it ramps on to the Gardiner in the morning rush hour and even in the evening rush hour the Gardiner often jams up all the way back to the DVP and is quite busy.

I agree that EB on the Gardiner once you pass Jarvis is pretty sparse (so good to tear down the Logan ramp) but I think the majority of the SB DVP traffic ramps on to the Gardiner WB rather than exists at Richmond.


But maybe my perception is all wrong. Weird though, because I drive it every day.

 

[TRONto]

Hmmm.... that's just not my experience at all.

The SB DVP always jams up as it ramps on to the Gardiner in the morning rush hour and even in the evening rush hour the Gardiner often jams up all the way back to the DVP and is quite busy.

View attachment 349069


I agree that EB on the Gardiner once you pass Jarvis is pretty sparse (so good to tear down the Logan ramp) but I think the majority of the SB DVP traffic ramps on to the Gardiner WB rather than exists at Richmond.


But maybe my perception is all wrong. Weird though, because I drive it every day.

I've seen the same