Rail: Ontario-Quebec High Speed Rail Study

[AnarchoSocialist]

I only ever lived in Barrhaven, and the only thing i remember from then is how far it was from everything when I was a passenger in my mom's van. This was before even the transitway was extended there, so I do have to defer to your experience AS.

I would only suggest connecting Union Station back up if the track were run at grade for most of the route. Scenic driveways are not what make a city nice to live in.

And MisterF, I'm with you too on the bypass idea. Any trains destined for Ottawa would use the existing station and trackage, while high speed trackage could be built through the greenbelt. I only proposed the airport station as an opportunity for a stop on that bypass route for codeshared flights. Ottawa Station would still be the main station for the region. A new bridge would need to be built over the Rideau River regardless since the Canadian Northern Ontario Railway Bridge is only single track (or is there room for it to be twinned?)

Im not sure if that bridge could be twinned or not. Im not sure if that would much help anyways, depending on what speeds the bridge could allow even with upgrades (right now trains slow down to about 60 km/h when they cross it).

One of the problems, or unique aspects, with Ottawa is that it never really grew around rail movements. Its never been that industrial and doesnt have all the convenient inner city lines that Toronto and Montreal do. Aside from spending several billion dollars to bring a rail line through or near downtown (which doesnt make sense right now at least) I think the stations they have now are the best choices.

A bypass for Toronto - Montreal trains might not be a bad idea. Putting it through the greenbelt is not going to happen and I dont even know if connecting the Ottawa airport to the HSR network is all that important (its not really along a natural path and its not a Pearson or even Trudeau). Just a general look at land use and topographical maps suggest a bypass about 25km south of the city could work. It would still be about 40 km in length, but still at least 100 km shorter than a lakeshore route.

For me, at least, what would make this routing truely work would be the development of a regional rail network in the Ottawa/Southwestern Ontario region. I cant elaborate too much only because Im not sure right now how that could best work. But, since regional rail is an idea Ottawa and surrounding communities are exploring maybe it could be integrated into and HSR plan to make it a little bit cheaper and marketable but yet more comprehensive in terms of service.

 

[k10ery]

Kingston, a relatively large urban centre in this corridor, a university town and a military town to boot (and that too a military town of strategic importance incurring lots of government business travel already).

Yes, it has been successfuly defending the Rideau Canal from attack for almost 200 years. Abandon Kingston, and who knows?

 

[dunkalunk]

Ottawa could really use some sort of regional rail.

I can agree that there may not be that much demand for a station at the Ottawa airport, but why couldn't a bypass go through the greenbelt?

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

Ottawa could really use some sort of regional rail.

I can agree that there may not be that much demand for a station at the Ottawa airport, but why couldn't a bypass go through the greenbelt?

Though the greenbelt is not super developed, it still has enough development that it would be an expropriation nightmare. Not to mention the NCC would never let it happen. Politically it would be a mess, even by Ottawa standards.

Pushing it a bit further south would likely work well. Its mostly agricultural or woodland and expropriation cost would likely be low. There would also be a lower per kilometer construction cost since building through the greenbelt would require far more bridges and tunnels over roads and bike paths, increased sound mitigation, and potentially higher costs for enhanced environmental protection.

 

[gweed123]

If you are going to do a by-pass through Ottawa, do it via the Walkley yards. There's a wide strip of land on both sides, and it's a relatively straight corridor. It's lightly used by freight, but those tracks can easily be relocated to one side or the other. This would also minimize the amount of parallel track that needs to be built (the later the by-pass and the main line diverge, the better).

And I do agree that Ottawa should have a GO system. From a provincial perspective (especially since McGuinty is from Ottawa) it would make sense for him to promise a GO system to Ottawa as a means of getting votes. Currently, the neighbouring communities serviced by active or intact rail lines are: Arnprior, Smiths Falls, and Casselman. There are abandoned corridors (some still have tracks, some have been ripped out) that lead to Carleton Place and to Kemptville. The only neighbouring community that doesn't have or could potentially have again a rail link is Rockland. That one would need to be built from scratch.

I actually briefly drew up a 4 phase plan for GO expansion in the NCR:

Phase 1: Bus service to all the neighbouring communities mentioned above (and the ones en route between them), and a new GO terminal set up directly downtown. Perhaps it could be coupled with a new Greyhound station. Once inside the City of Ottawa, it would use the existing Transitway for an express ride downtown, bypassing traffic.

Phase 2: If demand warrants, expand to include rail service to communities that have an existing rail line. Hopefully by this point the LRT will be built, providing a quality transit link between the train station and downtown. Hopefully also by then HOV lanes will exist on the 417, to make up for the loss of the Transitway being able to be used for buses.

Phase 3: Expand rail service to include formerly abandoned corridors, and a new corridor to Rockland. At this point, all major communities in the NCR will have rail access, even if it's train in peak and bus in off-peak (similar to what exists currently with a lot of GTA communities).

Phase 4: Electrify, boost frequencies, and dig a tunnel to reconnect the former Union Station and have it serve as the NCRs train hub once again. If Union is not suitable, a new underground station directly south of the CBD. Basically, a station location that will permit walking from the station to destinations downtown, and removing the necessary LRT trip.

 

[dowlingm]

One thing that is really important and thing should be looked at now is the standardization of voltage for trains along the Windsor-Quebec corridor. Is there a standard voltage? It would not be ideal to have to modify engines after the fact.

25kV AC is operational in Montreal and will also be in Toronto. That said, plenty of European HSR installations have to switch voltages. I guess the question is whether the lower power losses from the high voltage operation will be offset by local objections to electromagnetic effects etc.

I keep coming back to this point though - it's great to posit 300km/h trains etc. Even if the ENTIRE VIA support from government for capital and operating ($500m in 2010) was spent on this project it would take at least a decade of every dime being spent on something that it would take almost that entire period to carry a single passenger between one triangle city and another at 300km/h.

How do we get to a 160km/h train every hour from every 2-4 at present? How do we stop the air industry and the bus industry from lobbying additional resources for VIA to death, or through proxies on the right campaigning to abolish it entirely?

I see HSR in Canada like the US space program. Grand talk about Mars and going back to the moon and suddenly the Shuttle is going end of life and the US is buying rides on Soyuz. The perfect is the enemy of the good.

 

[Darwinkgo]

through proxies on the right campaigning to abolish it entirely?

Well, the government isn't listening to them, so who cares what they say.

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

If you are going to do a by-pass through Ottawa, do it via the Walkley yards. There's a wide strip of land on both sides, and it's a relatively straight corridor. It's lightly used by freight, but those tracks can easily be relocated to one side or the other. This would also minimize the amount of parallel track that needs to be built (the later the by-pass and the main line diverge, the better).

And I do agree that Ottawa should have a GO system. From a provincial perspective (especially since McGuinty is from Ottawa) it would make sense for him to promise a GO system to Ottawa as a means of getting votes. Currently, the neighbouring communities serviced by active or intact rail lines are: Arnprior, Smiths Falls, and Casselman. There are abandoned corridors (some still have tracks, some have been ripped out) that lead to Carleton Place and to Kemptville. The only neighbouring community that doesn't have or could potentially have again a rail link is Rockland. That one would need to be built from scratch.

I actually briefly drew up a 4 phase plan for GO expansion in the NCR:

Phase 1: Bus service to all the neighbouring communities mentioned above (and the ones en route between them), and a new GO terminal set up directly downtown. Perhaps it could be coupled with a new Greyhound station. Once inside the City of Ottawa, it would use the existing Transitway for an express ride downtown, bypassing traffic.

Phase 2: If demand warrants, expand to include rail service to communities that have an existing rail line. Hopefully by this point the LRT will be built, providing a quality transit link between the train station and downtown. Hopefully also by then HOV lanes will exist on the 417, to make up for the loss of the Transitway being able to be used for buses.

Phase 3: Expand rail service to include formerly abandoned corridors, and a new corridor to Rockland. At this point, all major communities in the NCR will have rail access, even if it's train in peak and bus in off-peak (similar to what exists currently with a lot of GTA communities).

Phase 4: Electrify, boost frequencies, and dig a tunnel to reconnect the former Union Station and have it serve as the NCRs train hub once again. If Union is not suitable, a new underground station directly south of the CBD. Basically, a station location that will permit walking from the station to destinations downtown, and removing the necessary LRT trip.

Walkley yards is not far from the station itself really and would provide very little time savings in the end. A Toronto to Montreal route that goes through Ottawa instead of along the Lakeshore is going to be about 100 km longer and add about 30 minutes to the overall travel time (between increased distance and slower speeds once the train gets near Ottawas urban fringes). If you have a bypass about 20 or 25 km south of the city you can probably save about 15 minutes. It makes a routing through (and around Ottawa) far more attractive since an additional 15 minutes is a much more reasonable trade off.

As far as your regional rail plan is concerned some of it is underway as we speak. Bus service to outlying communities expands every year and most places are now served with at least a few buses a day. There are serious talks surrounding moving the Greyhound terminal to the current train station and even a developer drafting plans to build condos on the current bus terminal site.

As for how to proceed on the rail portion, at least for me it depends a lot on when HSR is built. Ideally, regional rail should be built to tie into HSR and offer connections and services to outlying communities. Some corridors could be rebuilt to accomodate both services (on seperate track) during HSR construction. Regional rail doesnt need to be built tomorrow but at least there is enough discussion and even some planning in the Capital region that when an opportunity does arise they should be ready for it. Though Ottawa has never really had that kind of rail service historically, now, there are some fantastic opportunities to develop a really useful and modern service.

 

[dunkalunk]

If you are going to do a by-pass through Ottawa, do it via the Walkley yards. There's a wide strip of land on both sides, and it's a relatively straight corridor. It's lightly used by freight, but those tracks can easily be relocated to one side or the other. This would also minimize the amount of parallel track that needs to be built (the later the by-pass and the main line diverge, the better).

In my original concept, I also considered the walkley yards. CP has pretty much moved out of there after the arrival of the O-Train. However, you would still have all of the same noise mitigation and overpass cost issues associated with running the line by the airport. I could only really see an alignment like this working if a new rail bridge were built over the rideau river to both eliminate curves and get rid of the bottleneck at the current bridge.

 

[gweed123]

In my original concept, I also considered the walkley yards. CP has pretty much moved out of there after the arrival of the O-Train. However, you would still have all of the same noise mitigation and overpass cost issues associated with running the line by the airport. I could only really see an alignment like this working if a new rail bridge were built over the rideau river to both eliminate curves and get rid of the bottleneck at the current bridge.

True. In any case, any significant expansion in VIA service, or heck, even a widening of Prince of Wales Dr (which is also on the long-term plan), would require reconstruction of at least the overpass, and likely the bridge as well. I'd imagine that if they were to do one, they would do the other at the same time.

I know that the Walkley line is grade-separated at Riverside, the Airport Parkway, and Bank St. I can't speak to anything east of there though, as I can't remember off-hand. I think Conroy is still at-grade.

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

I want to say that most of the grade separations on the current VIA line could be twinned (save the Rideau River bridge) but I could be mistaken.

Right now the three major at grade crossings that remain are the diamond crossing across the O-Train line, and Woodroffe and Fallowfield. The O-Train crossing will be upgraded when that line gets rebuilt (so probably in 3 or 4 years time). If I'm not mistaken there are also plans to grade separate the two Barrhaven roads ready to go, but when is a bit up in the air. Given how busy those roads are it doesn't seem like it will be too long.

For the most part upgrading the inner city portion of Ottawas line would not be too hard. The only semi challenging section would be the part around Billing Bridge. Other than that most sections have lots of room for twinning and regional rail stations.

One thing that Ottawa does have going for it is that is essentially a blank slate. It has one line in use, and some other underused or flat abandoned lines. There is no old infrastructure or systems to worry about. When HSR and regional rail are built, there is nothing stopping them from using the best ideas and best systems (such ERTMS signalling systems). And the cost difference is almost negligable since you don't have to keep multiple systems or upgrade rolling stock or have construction costs rise due to working in tight corridors and around existing movements.

 

[gweed123]

I want to say that most of the grade separations on the current VIA line could be twinned (save the Rideau River bridge) but I could be mistaken.

Right now the three major at grade crossings that remain are the diamond crossing across the O-Train line, and Woodroffe and Fallowfield. The O-Train crossing will be upgraded when that line gets rebuilt (so probably in 3 or 4 years time). If I'm not mistaken there are also plans to grade separate the two Barrhaven roads ready to go, but when is a bit up in the air. Given how busy those roads are it doesn't seem like it will be too long.

For the most part upgrading the inner city portion of Ottawas line would not be too hard. The only semi challenging section would be the part around Billing Bridge. Other than that most sections have lots of room for twinning and regional rail stations.

One thing that Ottawa does have going for it is that is essentially a blank slate. It has one line in use, and some other underused or flat abandoned lines. There is no old infrastructure or systems to worry about. When HSR and regional rail are built, there is nothing stopping them from using the best ideas and best systems (such ERTMS signalling systems). And the cost difference is almost negligable since you don't have to keep multiple systems or upgrade rolling stock or have construction costs rise due to working in tight corridors and around existing movements.

Merivale Rd also needs to be grade-separated. IIRC, the Barrhaven Transitway extension at Fallowfield is being built at-grade across Fallowfield. My guess is that if they were to grade-separate that location, they'd put the road underneath both the rail and Transitway.

The N-S LRT is also at least 10 years out. The DOTT isn't scheduled to open until 2019, and the west extension to Baseline will be under construction by then. My guess is they won't even look at funding for the N-S LRT until the DOTT is completed and the west extension is significantly underway. Good news is though, that the engineering work for that line is alredy pretty much done, and will only need minor updating. I would imagine that once they take it off the shelf, it would take about a year to secure funding and spruce the plan up, and 6 months to get a contract bid together.

And yes, the blank slate is certainly an advantage. There is no significant freight traffic or any GO traffic at all to deal with in this upgrade.

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

Merivale Rd also needs to be grade-separated. IIRC, the Barrhaven Transitway extension at Fallowfield is being built at-grade across Fallowfield. My guess is that if they were to grade-separate that location, they'd put the road underneath both the rail and Transitway.

The N-S LRT is also at least 10 years out. The DOTT isn't scheduled to open until 2019, and the west extension to Baseline will be under construction by then. My guess is they won't even look at funding for the N-S LRT until the DOTT is completed and the west extension is significantly underway. Good news is though, that the engineering work for that line is alredy pretty much done, and will only need minor updating. I would imagine that once they take it off the shelf, it would take about a year to secure funding and spruce the plan up, and 6 months to get a contract bid together.

And yes, the blank slate is certainly an advantage. There is no significant freight traffic or any GO traffic at all to deal with in this upgrade.

I thought the DOTT for the N-S lrt line was set for around 2016 but with all the changes to the project it may well have changed at some point. Either way, in terms of its affect on HSR or regional rail it wouldn't make any difference in terms of timelines.

I don't expect regional rail for a while. I'd say it will be about 15 years before it is up and running. What matters right now is preplanning. Making sure useful corridors are preserved and once HSR is being planned, ensuring that the inner city section is also designed to accomodate regional rail traffic and stations. If they do that as well as they have managed much of the transitway then when the time comes to start building the first regional rail lines it should make it a relatively straight forward task.

 

[ShonTron]

The design for Brockville Station, after being panned by local heritage groups, has been rethought and released.

http://recorder.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3045566

It may not be high speed yet, but the third tracks along the corridors, new stations, new passing sidings, locomotive and car refurbishments and multi-platform stations at Oshawa, Cobourg, Belleville, will certainly improve the reliability of the current service.

I just did a trip from Brampton to London on the north main line. That service is painfully slow and rough. I hope GO/VIA's Kitchener improvements help (Guelph is pathetic between the station and the junction) in at least getting CTC and welded rail. Rail America really let things slide; I don't remember it being so bad, I even took the Amtrak Superliner equipped train on one of its last runs all the way to Sarnia and back for the hell of it, and wasn't so bad then.

 

[jswag]

Considering it's provincial election time, I asked Kathleen Wynne and staff to comment on the status of the Quebec-Ontario HSR feasibility study update. Here's the response I got from Team Wynne (on Twitter):

Continue to work w/Fed & Qbc govts on findings frm feasibility study #OLP only party w/a plan to build more rail & transit in ON

Still waiting for a response to a follow up question I had-- when the study might be made public. Not sure why all governments involved are being so secretive about this, other than the current economic climate. Has anyone else heard anything about this? I didn't see anything about the study in the last ~5 pages of this thread.