dunkalunk
Senior Member
What about Michigan and Indiana? We know Ohio is definitely on board.
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Rail: Ontario-Quebec High Speed Rail Study
- Thread starter isittimetomoveyet
- Start date
waterloowarrior
Senior Member
Talk about train delays: It took a year to commission study
High-speed train is still on side tracks while Ottawa is looking for projects
HENRY AUBIN
The Gazette
Tuesday, January 27, 2009
On Jan, 10, 2008, the premiers of Quebec, Ontario, and the federal government announced they were jointly ordering a study updating earlier research on a proposed high-speed rail line along the Quebec City-Windsor corridor. They said they expected the study to be finished in a year.
It's now been a year. What does the study say?
The question, it turns out, is rather premature. Work on the study has not yet even started.
Too bad. If the study were done, and if its conclusions were to support a high-speed rail project, early work on the scheme might be eligible for billions of dollars in infrastructure money that today's federal budget will make available. The Harper government's aim is to pour the infrastructure money into projects that are shovel-ready - that is, that can get under way within a year or so and thus combat the recession by creating jobs.
The delay reflects directly on the Charest government. Quebec, Ontario and Ottawa are equal partners in the study, each chipping in a third of the $3-million cost, but Quebec is in charge of the tendering process.
The province did not ask for tenders until July, a spokesperson for Quebec Transport Minister Julie Boulet told me yesterday. All three partners agreed in December that one company was best. The terms of the contract, however, will be under discussion at least until February.
A new line between Quebec City and Windsor - and particularly between Montreal and Toronto - has been studied repeatedly in recent decades. Two competing approaches have been at issue.
One concept, known in its native France as the TGV style (for train à grande vitesse), could cruise at upward of 300 kilometres per hour. It could slash the Montreal-Toronto travel time to two hours and 20 minutes from the current four hours and 20 minutes. The second concept, the rapid train, could go about 200 kilometres per hour and cover the same distance in three hours and 15 minutes.
In an interview that La Presse published this month, posthumously, Jean Pelletier revealed just how close the federal government had come to building a high-speed train.
When his stint as Prime Minister Jean Chrétien's chief of staff was coming to an end, Chrétien offered him a Senate seat or the ambassadorship to France. Pelletier rejected both, saying he wanted to become chairman of VIA Rail for one reason - to make the TGV-type train a reality. Chrétien told him to go for it.
After arriving at VIA in 2001, Pelletier found that the TGV-type model was prohibitively expensive - $12 billion. He settled for a $3-billion rapid train. Chrétien was ready to approve it but left office before he could do so. His successor, Paul Martin, was not interested. "I came within a hair of having it," said Pelletier.
Will the cost of TGV still be prohibitive a year from now, when the Quebec-Ontario-Ottawa study is supposed to be done? Will anti-recession money still be available at that time? It's too soon to say, but it's not too early to note that the case for the TGV will be stronger than ever once Canada, following the Obama administration's lead, gets serious about reducing greenhouse-gas emissions.
The rapid train would, like today's VIA trains, rely on diesel fuel, which emits greenhouse gases. The TGV-type locomotive, however, could be a hybrid, relying on both diesel and electricity (much of it from Quebec's clean hydro sources). As Transport 2000's David Jeanes points out, the train would be able to use electricity most of the time.
The faster concept's job-creation potential would also be greater. A dedicated track, required for much of the route, would require abundant manpower. Bombardier could build the rolling stock.
One of the arguments against the TGV-style concept is that fares for, say, a family of four would be much pricier than the cost of driving. But that argument ignores the likelihood that gasoline prices in the future will soar as oil supplies dwindle.
The contrast between high-speed rail and the Charest government's stock-still performance is appalling. It's time to get rolling.
Henry Aubin is The Gazette's regional-affairs columnist.
haubin@thegazette.canwest.com
© The Gazette (Montreal) 2009
High-speed train is still on side tracks while Ottawa is looking for projects
HENRY AUBIN
The Gazette
Tuesday, January 27, 2009
On Jan, 10, 2008, the premiers of Quebec, Ontario, and the federal government announced they were jointly ordering a study updating earlier research on a proposed high-speed rail line along the Quebec City-Windsor corridor. They said they expected the study to be finished in a year.
It's now been a year. What does the study say?
The question, it turns out, is rather premature. Work on the study has not yet even started.
Too bad. If the study were done, and if its conclusions were to support a high-speed rail project, early work on the scheme might be eligible for billions of dollars in infrastructure money that today's federal budget will make available. The Harper government's aim is to pour the infrastructure money into projects that are shovel-ready - that is, that can get under way within a year or so and thus combat the recession by creating jobs.
The delay reflects directly on the Charest government. Quebec, Ontario and Ottawa are equal partners in the study, each chipping in a third of the $3-million cost, but Quebec is in charge of the tendering process.
The province did not ask for tenders until July, a spokesperson for Quebec Transport Minister Julie Boulet told me yesterday. All three partners agreed in December that one company was best. The terms of the contract, however, will be under discussion at least until February.
A new line between Quebec City and Windsor - and particularly between Montreal and Toronto - has been studied repeatedly in recent decades. Two competing approaches have been at issue.
One concept, known in its native France as the TGV style (for train à grande vitesse), could cruise at upward of 300 kilometres per hour. It could slash the Montreal-Toronto travel time to two hours and 20 minutes from the current four hours and 20 minutes. The second concept, the rapid train, could go about 200 kilometres per hour and cover the same distance in three hours and 15 minutes.
In an interview that La Presse published this month, posthumously, Jean Pelletier revealed just how close the federal government had come to building a high-speed train.
When his stint as Prime Minister Jean Chrétien's chief of staff was coming to an end, Chrétien offered him a Senate seat or the ambassadorship to France. Pelletier rejected both, saying he wanted to become chairman of VIA Rail for one reason - to make the TGV-type train a reality. Chrétien told him to go for it.
After arriving at VIA in 2001, Pelletier found that the TGV-type model was prohibitively expensive - $12 billion. He settled for a $3-billion rapid train. Chrétien was ready to approve it but left office before he could do so. His successor, Paul Martin, was not interested. "I came within a hair of having it," said Pelletier.
Will the cost of TGV still be prohibitive a year from now, when the Quebec-Ontario-Ottawa study is supposed to be done? Will anti-recession money still be available at that time? It's too soon to say, but it's not too early to note that the case for the TGV will be stronger than ever once Canada, following the Obama administration's lead, gets serious about reducing greenhouse-gas emissions.
The rapid train would, like today's VIA trains, rely on diesel fuel, which emits greenhouse gases. The TGV-type locomotive, however, could be a hybrid, relying on both diesel and electricity (much of it from Quebec's clean hydro sources). As Transport 2000's David Jeanes points out, the train would be able to use electricity most of the time.
The faster concept's job-creation potential would also be greater. A dedicated track, required for much of the route, would require abundant manpower. Bombardier could build the rolling stock.
One of the arguments against the TGV-style concept is that fares for, say, a family of four would be much pricier than the cost of driving. But that argument ignores the likelihood that gasoline prices in the future will soar as oil supplies dwindle.
The contrast between high-speed rail and the Charest government's stock-still performance is appalling. It's time to get rolling.
Henry Aubin is The Gazette's regional-affairs columnist.
haubin@thegazette.canwest.com
© The Gazette (Montreal) 2009
ShonTron
Moderator
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I know. Have you seen the guy's crypt?
Of course I know the name of Martin O'Malley (or how would I know he was the last mayor of Baltimore?).
waterloowarrior
Senior Member
Automation Gallery
Superstar
If a country like Portugal can do it why cant we?
http://www.amblissabon.um.dk/en/men...heder/SidsteNyt/PortoVigoTGVRailLinkABoom.htm
http://www.the-news.net/cgi-bin/article.pl?id=962-25
http://www.o-keating.com/hsr/tgv.htm
http://www.amblissabon.um.dk/en/men...heder/SidsteNyt/PortoVigoTGVRailLinkABoom.htm
http://www.the-news.net/cgi-bin/article.pl?id=962-25
http://www.o-keating.com/hsr/tgv.htm
borgo100
Active Member
because Canada fails....
Ansem
Banned
Because politically it’s not a winning argument to announce further deficits (I call it the credit card)
Politicians used the (credit card) for stupid reasons in the past and today you need a recession to make them go down that path.
Am I a deficit junkie? NO
But there is nothing wrong using the credit card for projects that are just common sense.
***I can only speak for myself since I'm from Montreal
Montreal became what it is by using the credit card.
With the credit card Mayor Drapeau put Montreal on the map:
-Expo 67
-Montreal Metro
-Downtown Montreal
-Underground passage (like PATH)
-Olympic Stadium + Olympic games (bad investment there)
Sure the city is in debt...Was it worth it? Yes
So for the HSR for Quebec Windsor, they should have put it in the budget.
Expensive? yes. But doing it now is less expensive than in 10 years...
We all know that Portugal **Have the money** for HSR.
In the G7, Canada is the country that has the best debt management. Eventually, this line will be profitable.
Canada has the mean for HSR but our politicians are short sighted...
Their gonna wait until we wont have a choice beacuse Montreal-Toronto by train takes on average 5h30 and in 2009 in a country like Canada...its shameful...
waterloowarrior
Senior Member
Tory Senator hopes to fast track rail link
BY MIKE DE SOUZA, CANWEST NEWS SERVICEFEBRUARY 7, 2009 12:01 PM
OTTAWA -- The Harper government's new point man for Montreal has got a high-speed train in his sights.
In a wide-ranging interview, newly appointed Senator Leo Housakos said he would be pushing the high-speed rail option between Quebec City and Windsor onto the government's agenda.
Housakos, 41, who served for a year on the board of VIA Rail until 2008, said he recognized that Canada was built on its railway system and should use a new train infrastructure project as part of an economic stimulus plan.
"I think this is an opportunity with high-speed rail to take Canada into the 21st century with an infrastructure program that's environmentally green, that can create tons of jobs, and can really connect this country quickly, especially starting off with the Quebec City-Windsor corridor," said Housakos, 41, who was among 18 Conservative senators appointed by Prime Minister Stephen Harper in December.
In its latest budget, the Harper government announced it would increase funding to VIA Rail Canada by $407 million to improve service, particularly between Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto. But most infrastructure experts have said that the proposal for a full-blown high-speed link would require construction of a new track solely for passenger trains and would likely carry a multibillion-dollar price tag.
"The 21st century is about speed, and I think that (a high-speed rail link) is a project that's dear to my heart. It's something that I want to put on the forefront of the agenda."
The Tory Senator's comments come nearly a year after the premiers of Quebec and Ontario announced a joint feasibility study for a new high-speed rail project that would cover a territory that is home to about half of the Canadian population. In the House of Commons, an all-party committee led by Conservative MP Dean Del Mastro, from Peterborough, Ont., has also been advocating a new high-speed link for Central Canada.
But Housakos admitted that he still had a lot of work to do in order to convince his government to buy into the plan.
"Unfortunately, in government, you have to appreciate that things move in millimetres and the yardsticks have to go forward," he said. "So I think the first step is to sensitize all the key players and to just keep at it until it gets done. I don't think I have a particular target in terms of (whether it would be approved) next year or the year after, but I will definitely do the best that I can to keep it on the floor."
Housakos said this is just one aspect of his mandate as the Conservative government's lone representative in Parliament from Montreal where the party has virtually been shut out in elections for the past 20 years.
"Obviously we have a lot of work to do in the greater Montreal area," said Housakos, who was a Canadian Alliance candidate in the region during the 2000 federal election. "There's no secret it's one of the toughest parts of the country for us."
He said Harper has asked him to engage with Montrealers, cultural groups and communities throughout the city to listen to their concerns and be their voice in the Conservative caucus. He said he hopes that federalists in Montreal will recognize that they have an alternative to the Liberal party and begin to play a "vibrant" role in the Conservative party.
"I think they should never forget that the Liberal party was ready to form a coalition government with a leader who was not worthy to remain leader of the Liberal party," he said. "But they were willing to make him prime minister of Canada with a knife at the throat from Gilles Duceppe and the Bloc Quebecois supporting that government. I think that's unacceptable."
Housakos, a longtime fundraiser for the Conservatives and provincial Action democratique du Quebec parties, said he has always supported an elected and effective Senate and will gladly support legislation to reform Parliament's upper chamber when it's introduced by the government, possibly in the coming weeks.
mdesouza@canwest.com
BY MIKE DE SOUZA, CANWEST NEWS SERVICEFEBRUARY 7, 2009 12:01 PM
OTTAWA -- The Harper government's new point man for Montreal has got a high-speed train in his sights.
In a wide-ranging interview, newly appointed Senator Leo Housakos said he would be pushing the high-speed rail option between Quebec City and Windsor onto the government's agenda.
Housakos, 41, who served for a year on the board of VIA Rail until 2008, said he recognized that Canada was built on its railway system and should use a new train infrastructure project as part of an economic stimulus plan.
"I think this is an opportunity with high-speed rail to take Canada into the 21st century with an infrastructure program that's environmentally green, that can create tons of jobs, and can really connect this country quickly, especially starting off with the Quebec City-Windsor corridor," said Housakos, 41, who was among 18 Conservative senators appointed by Prime Minister Stephen Harper in December.
In its latest budget, the Harper government announced it would increase funding to VIA Rail Canada by $407 million to improve service, particularly between Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto. But most infrastructure experts have said that the proposal for a full-blown high-speed link would require construction of a new track solely for passenger trains and would likely carry a multibillion-dollar price tag.
"The 21st century is about speed, and I think that (a high-speed rail link) is a project that's dear to my heart. It's something that I want to put on the forefront of the agenda."
The Tory Senator's comments come nearly a year after the premiers of Quebec and Ontario announced a joint feasibility study for a new high-speed rail project that would cover a territory that is home to about half of the Canadian population. In the House of Commons, an all-party committee led by Conservative MP Dean Del Mastro, from Peterborough, Ont., has also been advocating a new high-speed link for Central Canada.
But Housakos admitted that he still had a lot of work to do in order to convince his government to buy into the plan.
"Unfortunately, in government, you have to appreciate that things move in millimetres and the yardsticks have to go forward," he said. "So I think the first step is to sensitize all the key players and to just keep at it until it gets done. I don't think I have a particular target in terms of (whether it would be approved) next year or the year after, but I will definitely do the best that I can to keep it on the floor."
Housakos said this is just one aspect of his mandate as the Conservative government's lone representative in Parliament from Montreal where the party has virtually been shut out in elections for the past 20 years.
"Obviously we have a lot of work to do in the greater Montreal area," said Housakos, who was a Canadian Alliance candidate in the region during the 2000 federal election. "There's no secret it's one of the toughest parts of the country for us."
He said Harper has asked him to engage with Montrealers, cultural groups and communities throughout the city to listen to their concerns and be their voice in the Conservative caucus. He said he hopes that federalists in Montreal will recognize that they have an alternative to the Liberal party and begin to play a "vibrant" role in the Conservative party.
"I think they should never forget that the Liberal party was ready to form a coalition government with a leader who was not worthy to remain leader of the Liberal party," he said. "But they were willing to make him prime minister of Canada with a knife at the throat from Gilles Duceppe and the Bloc Quebecois supporting that government. I think that's unacceptable."
Housakos, a longtime fundraiser for the Conservatives and provincial Action democratique du Quebec parties, said he has always supported an elected and effective Senate and will gladly support legislation to reform Parliament's upper chamber when it's introduced by the government, possibly in the coming weeks.
mdesouza@canwest.com
kEiThZ
Superstar
Because we don't have a sugar daddy like the EU to foot a chunk of the bill. And because their construction costs are significantly lower (8.68 million euros per km) making the opportunity costs lower. A Quebec-Windsor HSR would be an order of magnitude different. And we would not have an existing HSR network to tap into. We would be starting from scratch in this country. That's not to say it's not worthwhile, but it should not be portrayed as an easy initiative.
dunkalunk
Senior Member
One of the segments which was presented at the recent high speed rail symposium in Kitchener was the fact that other high speed rail systems in the world were not built as one peice, but in an incremental approach. Even the TGV was built starting on a spine connecting Lyon to Paris. Even though it may have connected two cities, it dramatically sped up rail travel for the rest of France because that 2 hours was cut off from all other journeys who used that corridor.
However, in Canada, that spine between Montreal and Toronto is hard to identify as we have a city with a population of Million sitting just to the north of it while we have a lake and river shore with a fairly significant population of its own to the south. While, it would be foolish to leave out our national capital region, it would also be a loss to leave out those communities on the lakeshore.
What also complicates the situation is that between Kingston and the National Capital Region there is a ridiculous amount of lakes carved out of rocks which would be incredibly expensive to blow a straight line through with very little population to serve between them (which is why i think MP Del Mastro is insane if he thinks high speed rail is going through his Peterborough riding).
I agree that high speed rail needs to be an incremental approach and should be built around a spine which would reap the greatest benefits for the most passengers. I think I may have found such a spine for a high speed rail line in Canada:
Link to Google Map
This map was an attempt to use existing rail right of ways in a high speed rail system which would improve speeds between Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa collectively. I've highlighted areas on the map which are essential new corridors which would prove to have an immediate benefit to passenger rail travel times if built as fully grade separated right of ways. The rest could be upgraded gradually, but these new lines would be a very important starting point.
For more information about the routes, click on the link to the map. I'm going to leave it at that for now, I'm tired.
I'll be adding a table of differences in distance between the three cities later. For those worried about the difference between the red line routing and the CN south line, its only about 10km, negligible when you factor in high speeds from straighter track, electrification, and improved rolling stock.
However, in Canada, that spine between Montreal and Toronto is hard to identify as we have a city with a population of Million sitting just to the north of it while we have a lake and river shore with a fairly significant population of its own to the south. While, it would be foolish to leave out our national capital region, it would also be a loss to leave out those communities on the lakeshore.
What also complicates the situation is that between Kingston and the National Capital Region there is a ridiculous amount of lakes carved out of rocks which would be incredibly expensive to blow a straight line through with very little population to serve between them (which is why i think MP Del Mastro is insane if he thinks high speed rail is going through his Peterborough riding).
I agree that high speed rail needs to be an incremental approach and should be built around a spine which would reap the greatest benefits for the most passengers. I think I may have found such a spine for a high speed rail line in Canada:
Link to Google Map
This map was an attempt to use existing rail right of ways in a high speed rail system which would improve speeds between Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa collectively. I've highlighted areas on the map which are essential new corridors which would prove to have an immediate benefit to passenger rail travel times if built as fully grade separated right of ways. The rest could be upgraded gradually, but these new lines would be a very important starting point.
For more information about the routes, click on the link to the map. I'm going to leave it at that for now, I'm tired.
I'll be adding a table of differences in distance between the three cities later. For those worried about the difference between the red line routing and the CN south line, its only about 10km, negligible when you factor in high speeds from straighter track, electrification, and improved rolling stock.
kEiThZ
Superstar
The best way to start is not by serving Toronto but by building the cheapest lines first.
1) Ottawa-Montreal
2) Montreal-Quebec City
Once those come into play, it'll build up a constituency for HSR to Toronto and towards Windsor.
1) Ottawa-Montreal
2) Montreal-Quebec City
Once those come into play, it'll build up a constituency for HSR to Toronto and towards Windsor.
MisterF
Senior Member
A corridor going from Kingston to Ottawa to Montreal would add 70 km or so to the trip, not a whole lot considering it adds a market of a million people and the speeds involved. European HSR lines zigzag all the time to hit major cities. The only significant population centres that route would miss are Brockville and Cornwall, which have 98,000 people combined and are already served by VIA.
That section of Canadian Shield north of Kingston is only about 40 km long. The rest of the route is mostly farmland. It wouldn't be all that difficult to blast through that, especially compared to the tunnels that are routinely built for HSR in Europe, or even the highways we build right here in Ontario. Anyone who's driven Hwy 11 to North Bay or 400/69 to Sudbury knows what I mean, there are some massive rights of way being blasted through hundreds of km of rock up there.
Hwy 400
Hwy 11
Pictures from www.onthighways.com
dunkalunk
Senior Member
I originally thought that a high speed line via Smiths falls cutting through the shield was doable, but the lakes and terrain in that area prevent any track from being built even close to straight line between Kingston and Ottawa except for the line from Smiths Falls to Ottawa. This route would require numerous bridges, viaducts, and tunnels compared to a more easterly route which runs almost exclusively through farmland and has no major river crossings.
waterloowarrior
Senior Member
there are two pretty straight (hydro?) corridors that can connect havelock area to Ottawa...
urbanfan89
Active Member
I've altered my map, but the principle remains the same: existing infrastructure is maximized, and the amount of new right of way needed is very limited. The number of potential destinations is maximized as well.
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=U...8050198920242492381.00045e62e4d9b8491df28&z=7
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=U...8050198920242492381.00045e62e4d9b8491df28&z=7