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Rail: Ontario-Quebec High Speed Rail Study

TOareaFan said:
As it relates to debt load....what does that bold part mean?
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A preemptive point - I was anticipating someone replying "The Ontario deficit is irrelevant, VIA will get Federal money for HSR in Ontario".

If federal funds are used, you can be sure they won't be raised in Swift Current or Fredericton. It will add to Ontario's debt, no matter what the accounting.

- Paul
 
crs1026 said:
If federal funds are used, you can be sure they won't be raised in Swift Current or Fredericton. It will add to Ontario's debt, no matter what the accounting.
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I don't understand. If you're not on the hook for principal or interest, how is it in any way your debt?
 
crs1026 said:
If federal funds are used, you can be sure they won't be raised in Swift Current or Fredericton. It will add to Ontario's debt, no matter what the accounting.

- Paul
Click to expand...
Sometimes they are. If province X is better off than Y, sometimes taxpayers in X is paying into Y.

It is called "equalization payments"
 
mdrejhon said:
Sometimes they are. If province X is better off than Y, sometimes taxpayers in X is paying into Y.
It is called "equalization payments"
Click to expand...

I get national wealth redistribution. (Not to digress too far into political curmudgeonship - in Canada it has unfortunately expanded beyond social equity into a culture of political vote-buying.... we are taxed and then asked to love politicians who dole out our money to us)

I just think the principle doesn't assist here. It will be a very hard sell in Parliament (let alone in Cabinet) to say that, being a have-not province, Ontario deserves to get a HSR with funding from other provinces. That could create a whole debate or backlash that isn't necessary. Let's not set this up for other provinces (where car/airplane is still king, and may remain so for decades) to take shots at.

Even if some of the money comes through Ottawa, the amount should look like what came from Ontario (I'm not knowledgeable enough to define specifically what the formula looks like) so we are seen to be paying our own way.

Nor is it helpful for discussions around debt to GDP ratios to "hide" the borrowing for Ontario's infrastructure in the non-Ontario portion of the debt. The other provinces won't stand for that. So yes, it is Ontario's principal and interest.

- Paul
 
howl said:
One of the cons of the Hamilton route is the HRS would have to dip down through the City of Brantford, but originally the line went almost straight from Dundas to Woodstock. The straight line that bypassed Brantford was taken out of use when a bridge collapsed in 1916, but the old track bed is still there and, except for a few houses built right next to it and the town of Woodstock, re-using it would give you the potential for a super straight high speed line through nothing but farmland for about 100km from Dundas to London.
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That Brantford bypass was included in the 2011 HSR Study, IIRC.
 
I can't comment on the Native concerns but as a bone to throw to Brantford, they could extend GO service. It makes a lot of sense as there are a lot of Brantford/Hamilton commuters. I Bet the over whelming majority in Brantford would rather GO than a slow VIA train.
 
ssiguy2 said:
I can't comment on the Native concerns but as a bone to throw to Brantford, they could extend GO service. It makes a lot of sense as there are a lot of Brantford/Hamilton commuters. I Bet the over whelming majority in Brantford would rather GO than a slow VIA train.
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The Brantford line meets the GO line around 403 / Hwy 6 interchange. A GO line going to Brantford would need to Y at the Aldershot station. Unfortunately this means that a Brantford line would not service downtown Hamilton.

To fix this the LRT would have to be extended to Dundas (and there are elevation changes that may become potential issues).

This also creates an issue for GO. Do we want 3 distinct termini on Lakeshore West?

A second alternative would have a smaller train running between Brantford and Hamilton terminating at the Hunter station. But that would increase travel time for commuters from Brantford to Toronto (and there are quite a few on the VIA every morning) by about 15 minutes.
 
muller877 said:
The Brantford line meets the GO line around 403 / Hwy 6 interchange. A GO line going to Brantford would need to Y at the Aldershot station. Unfortunately this means that a Brantford line would not service downtown Hamilton.

To fix this the LRT would have to be extended to Dundas (and there are elevation changes that may become potential issues).

This also creates an issue for GO. Do we want 3 distinct termini on Lakeshore West?

A second alternative would have a smaller train running between Brantford and Hamilton terminating at the Hunter station. But that would increase travel time for commuters from Brantford to Toronto (and there are quite a few on the VIA every morning) by about 15 minutes.
Click to expand...


Gasp, interlined operations!!!???!!! Come on (sarcasm intended)
 
I think in the near-term, it makes the most sense to envision three termini, which there are today, anyway.

Hunter (downtown Hamilton), James St (which will be supplanted by Stoney Creek in some fashion), and Aldershot.

But I would envision that Aldershot will cease to be a terminal station at some point.

It would make more sense to me to have either Hunter or Stoney Creek act as the Hamilton Hub station.

Brantford service would start as Brantford to Hunter, w/VIA continuing to provide the longer haul service to Toronto.

I don't really see GO operating a Brantford to Toronto service without different rolling stock.

But VIA can and should upgrade speed and frequency as demand warrants.

For Stoney Creek, (many decades in the future) I'd like to see Hunter connect to it via the Beltline so you could run through service out of Hunter.
 
muller877 said:
The Brantford line meets the GO line around 403 / Hwy 6 interchange. A GO line going to Brantford would need to Y at the Aldershot station. Unfortunately this means that a Brantford line would not service downtown Hamilton.
Click to expand...

Huh? Why would it need to change ends (not wye) at Aldershot? There is track to allow for trains to run from Brantford directly into Hamilton and thence into the Niagara Peninsula.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
smallspy said:
Huh? Why would it need to change ends (not wye) at Aldershot? There is track to allow for trains to run from Brantford directly into Hamilton and thence into the Niagara Peninsula.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
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There are people in Brantford that commute on VIA right now to Toronto. I would expect that any new trains should service this group (plus offer commuting options to Hamilton). If it does use the track into the Hunter station...1. does GO have enough running rights? 2. How much time would it add onto the commute to Toronto? I was thinking that the Brantford service would be better suited to continue to Aldershot and not terminate at Hunter for these reasons.

(basically heavy train from Brantford can either service Aldershot or Hunter...but not both. And the best alternative would be services Aldershot and extend the LRT to Dundas so it can also have a connection to downtown Hamilton)
 
muller877 said:
There are people in Brantford that commute on VIA right now to Toronto. I would expect that any new trains should service this group (plus offer commuting options to Hamilton). If it does use the track into the Hunter station...1. does GO have enough running rights? 2. How much time would it add onto the commute to Toronto? I was thinking that the Brantford service would be better suited to continue to Aldershot and not terminate at Hunter for these reasons.

(basically heavy train from Brantford can either service Aldershot or Hunter...but not both. And the best alternative would be services Aldershot and extend the LRT to Dundas so it can also have a connection to downtown Hamilton)
Click to expand...

Recognising this is off-topic, but Is a GO rail station at Dundas feasibly practical? The line is on the side of a cliff.
 
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