Rail Deck Park (?, ?, ?)

[Midtown Urbanist]

We can criticize Metrolinx here for sure, but whose willing to bet that the number of times that the City talked to Metrolinx about their rights over the past few years was a big fat zero, while CRAFT probably met and discussed their plans with Metrolinx numerous times.

The City sat on their hands on this file for years it seems. This new information shouldn't be emerging during a court appeal.

 

[karledice]

Super sad that the evidence is mounting against this park as proposed by the city.
It really should be a park in its entirety

 

[DSC]

We can criticize Metrolinx here for sure, but whose willing to bet that the number of times that the City talked to Metrolinx about their rights over the past few years was a big fat zero, while CRAFT probably met and discussed their plans with Metrolinx numerous times.

The City sat on their hands on this file for years it seems. This new information shouldn't be emerging during a court appeal.

Or CRAFT talked to Ford and Co and they told Metrolinx to do whatever CRAFT wanted. It's called politics around here.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Super sad that the evidence is mounting against this park as proposed by the city.
It really should be a park in its entirety

The only evidence mounting against this park is that the City proposed it with no actual plan to acquire the lands or pay for building it.
As I've said before, I could argue that your current place of residence is absolutely perfect for the City to build a park, but since you live there, you probably would have some concerns if they announced they were doing that.

Everyone's looking for some conspiracy invovling Ford and Metrolinx and the boogeyman and maybe George Soros, for all I know. Like ol' Occam said, the simplest explanatin is probably the correct one:
-CRAFT acquired the site and started planning;
-The City thought they could undercut their plans by announcing their own, completely impractical plan;
-The developers asked to negotiate and the City said no, instead writing some blog posts and producing 2 or 3 renderings and then did nothing else;
-The public largely bought the narrative that the City was trying to "save" the lands from evil developers;
-The developers continued to plan for development on their lands while the City did nothing;
-The developers won at the LPAT and the City issued sad sack press releases about their disappointment that this much-neeeded park -- the plans for which consisted entirely of 2 or 3 renderings, no actual design, no actual legal argument, no actual land ownership and no actual financial plan for the $1b+ cost - would be denied to the citizens of Toronto.

And months later, still people are disappointed that privately owned lands the City effecitvely tried to steal, will be developed in accordance with the legal rights of their owners.

There's no conspiracy here, folks.
It would have been a nice park, if it made sense. It never did.

 

[vatche]

I think the Garderner has to go underground. No doubt about it. And make it a nice tree lined boulevard with wide sidewalks.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I think the Garderner has to go underground. No doubt about it. And make it a nice tree lined boulevard with wide sidewalks.

You're probably right (at least that it should be removed, I'm not sure about underground) but the same mayor who pretended the park was real has already made a financial and political commitment to keeping the Gardiner up. I don't know if there's still time to change that.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

I think the Garderner has to go underground. No doubt about it. And make it a nice tree lined boulevard with wide sidewalks.

Too expensive to do it plus not enough room for exit and entrence ramps to underground.

 

[gibsonm]

The only evidence mounting against this park is that the City proposed it with no actual plan to acquire the lands or pay for building it.
As I've said before, I could argue that your current place of residence is absolutely perfect for the City to build a park, but since you live there, you probably would have some concerns if they announced they were doing that.

Everyone's looking for some conspiracy invovling Ford and Metrolinx and the boogeyman and maybe George Soros, for all I know. Like ol' Occam said, the simplest explanatin is probably the correct one:
-CRAFT acquired the site and started planning;
-The City thought they could undercut their plans by announcing their own, completely impractical plan;
-The developers asked to negotiate and the City said no, instead writing some blog posts and producing 2 or 3 renderings and then did nothing else;
-The public largely bought the narrative that the City was trying to "save" the lands from evil developers;
-The developers continued to plan for development on their lands while the City did nothing;
-The developers won at the LPAT and the City issued sad sack press releases about their disappointment that this much-neeeded park -- the plans for which consisted entirely of 2 or 3 renderings, no actual design, no actual legal argument, no actual land ownership and no actual financial plan for the $1b+ cost - would be denied to the citizens of Toronto.

And months later, still people are disappointed that privately owned lands the City effecitvely tried to steal, will be developed in accordance with the legal rights of their owners.

There's no conspiracy here, folks.
It would have been a nice park, if it made sense. It never did.

But the railway lands are not owned for housing/office/retail development. They are only zoned for rail use, and the province, city, and particularly federal government which has jurisdiction over rail, decide the zoning. It seems that private developers only became interested in developing the rail lands when the city proposed the Rail Deck Park. A park is in the public interest. All three levels of government should and must deny any approval to private development over the rail lands in the name of the public interest. And Metrolinx, don’t forget who you work for or expect to be dismantled by government decree at the next election.

 

[gibsonm]

Too expensive to do it plus not enough room for exit and entrence ramps to underground.

If the Gardiner is to be buried, it should be done at the same time as and largely in the same alignment as the Ontario line, with exits/entrances along Richmond and Adelaide Streets, west and east of the central business district, but city planners seemed stuck on the Lakeshore alignment and have settled for the Hybrid and Bentway. The argument has also been made, unsuccessfully I believe, that Lakeshore Road and the railway tracks are barriers to the lake anyway, so why not keep more barriers by maintaining the elevated Gardiner? These days it feels like a fait accompli to keep the Gardiner, because our governments stopped dreaming big a long time ago. We can’t have major downtown parks, buried expressways or international events like World’s Fairs or Olympics because ultimately our governments and citizens don’t think we deserve them. Instead we rely heavily on private developers for development charges and the little POP parks that they fund. We don’t know how to have a good time. We have to go to designated provincial stores instead of corner stores to buy booze and we couldn’t drink it outside when restaurants and bars were closed. Toronto the Good or Toronto the Boring. Get with the program. Toronto is now bigger than Chicago and the fastest developing major city in North America. Why can’t we do anything special here?

 

[TRONto]

But the railway lands are not owned for housing/office/retail development. They are only zoned for rail use, and the province, city, and particularly federal government which has jurisdiction over rail, decide the zoning. It seems that private developers only became interested in developing the rail lands when the city proposed the Rail Deck Park. A park is in the public interest. All three levels of government should and must deny any approval to private development over the rail lands in the name of the public interest. And Metrolinx, don’t forget who you work for or expect to be dismantled by government decree at the next election.

IIRC, the developers had purchased the rights years before the concept of rail deck park was announced

 

[christiesplits]

You're probably right (at least that it should be removed, I'm not sure about underground) but the same mayor who pretended the park was real has already made a financial and political commitment to keeping the Gardiner up. I don't know if there's still time to change that.

Even a portion of the Gardiner underground - like Bathurst to York - would be nice.

 

[gibsonm]

IIRC, the developers had purchased the rights years before the concept of rail deck park was announced

It’s a rail corridor. Air rights? To what? No one gave them the right to build over that. Can the airport authority build a condo tower over Pearson Airport? It’s insane. Who’s in charge of our rail corridors? I thought the feds.

 

[gibsonm]

Even a portion of the Gardiner underground - like Bathurst to York - would be nice.

They can’t even let private businesses animate under the Gardiner. There should be well lit outdoor market stalls and food vendors. Spadina and Yonge and Lakeshore could be totally transformed.

 

[TRONto]

It’s a rail corridor. Air rights? To what? No one gave them the right to build over that. Can the airport authority build a condo tower over Pearson Airport? It’s insane. Who’s in charge of our rail corridors? I thought the feds.

The owners of the rails own the air rights. Quick google search shows the air rights were purchased in 2013. Pearson is owned by the Feds. The comparison isn't correct.

Tribunal quashes dreams of Toronto's future Rail Deck Park | Urbanized

Rail Deck Park likely won't come to fruition in Toronto after a provincial tribunal sided with a developer looking to build on the space.

dailyhive.com

 

[gibsonm]

The owners of the rails own the air rights. Quick google search shows the air rights were purchased in 2013. Pearson is owned by the Feds. The comparison isn't correct.

Tribunal quashes dreams of Toronto's future Rail Deck Park | Urbanized

Rail Deck Park likely won't come to fruition in Toronto after a provincial tribunal sided with a developer looking to build on the space.

dailyhive.com

How is it possible for private developers to buy air rights over rail corridors? Unless the public explicitly supports this, it makes no sense that this was somehow an option for private developers. Rail corridors are like ports. Something not right about this. I don’t trust the rulings on this. Should all be appealed or the province, feds, and city simply need to legislate away this ridiculous possibility. If the Province could do it with the Greenbelt, it should be much easier over a rail corridor, which should be public agency/authority run, not unlike ports and airports. C’mon! Scrap LPAT. It’s just a creation of the provincial government.