Quality of Life Crimes/Public Behaviour

[Irishmunk]

To get a perspective on this issue just look at our murder rates, and then look at theirs (the U.S). That's the bottom line as far as I'm concerned. If I had to choose between feeling intimidated by legions of aggressive, heavily armed cops and heat packing rednecks, or mild annoyance at rude teenagers hogging seats in the subways while squaking on their cellphones, I'd pick the rude teenagers every time. But if public politeness is the most pressing concern, well, there's always North Korea.

 

[The Mississauga Muse]

Irishmunk

If I had to choose between feeling intimidated by legions of aggressive, heavily armed cops and heat packing rednecks, or mild annoyance at rude teenagers hogging seats in the subways while squaking on their cellphones, I'd pick the rude teenagers every time.

Indeed.

And if I had to choose between feeling intimidated by a legion of municipal enforcement "constables" or feeling intimidated by rude teenagers, give me the teens.

At least I'm not paying salaries to the teens through my property taxes to have them lie to me with, "Hi, we're from the government and we're here to help."

 

[fiendishlibrarian]

Yeah right, whatever. Let's see you say that at one in the morning at Vic Park station with a pack of homies staring you down.

 

[adma]

Finally, the Bloor night bus tonight had to stop when a homeless woman came on board and demanded money from people. After she had squeezed her way onto the bus and we were stopped for ten minutes, even the normally meek Toronto crowd had enough and told her to **** off, with one guy grabbing her by the sleeve and tossing her onto the sidewalk. The guy sitting next to me, a TTC employee, told me that drivers were helpless to do anything and the protocol is for the drivers to sit and wait there until the police or special constables arrive.

Would that be that same black woman who trolls subway cars moaning for change because she's starving and hasn't got a bit to eat? One of the most obnoxious perennial "Shaky Lady" characters out there, she is. (I just hold out my hand to her in a gentle "sorry, kiddo, move on" gesture. Sometimes, simple is best.)

 

[SD2]

Yeah right, whatever. Let's see you say that at one in the morning at Vic Park station with a pack of homies staring you down.

Stuff like that has happened to me quite a few times (mostly at the Square One bus terminal, which many find odd), but I'm not going to take some personal experiences and then assume it's the norm.

When we hear people from out of town complain about the city based on some ridiculous things that happened to them on their trip, we're quick to say they're jumping to irrational conclusions. Why should it be any different for us?

 

[The Mississauga Muse]

fiendishlibrarian wrote:

Yeah right, whatever. Let's see you say that at one in the morning at Vic Park station with a pack of homies staring you down.

Are you suggesting that at Vic Park there are TTC constables on hand ready to come to your aid at one in the morning? (Genuine question. It's been a few years since I've been to T.O. by public transit and maybe a year before that excursion. I read they've been beefing up security so...maybe there is effective security on hand any time of day. Asking...)

SD2 wrote:

Stuff like that has happened to me quite a few times (mostly at the Square One bus terminal, which many find odd), but I'm not going to take some personal experiences and then assume it's the norm.

Perhaps not, but when does "quite a few times" become "the norm"? Especially when you pair your experiences with those of other people.

When we hear people from out of town complain about the city based on some ridiculous things that happened to them on their trip, we're quick to say they're jumping to irrational conclusions. Why should it be any different for us?

OK. "irrational conclusions" --Let's test that theory.

Mississauga for one is having a tough time getting people to use public transit. In Toronto, Mayor Miller recently tossed around the idea of making parking more expensive to "encourage" people to use transit (Translation: a ding-tax that the well-heeled won't even notice when they park their luxury cars but the ordinary guy will).

The biggest negative to public transit as I see it is the PUBLIC uses it. With public transit you are forced to sit in a mobile-box with some people who --if they approached you while you were in your car, you'd quickly roll up the windows.

That doesn't make sense to me.

The second-biggest negative is that you can be accosted in a bus/subway car full of people and it's the rare individual who'd come to your aid. The concept of there being "safety in numbers" works to some degree but --when you need help or witnesses, most often you're staring at thin air.

I remember the last few times I walked Yonge Street (five/six years ago) teens shuffling around in packs. One one occasion, a serious fight had broken out and one man was lying on the sidewalk. Police (thankfully) were there calming the situation.

Then there was the gauntlet of pan-handlers --not a one who was remotely aggressive-- didn't even talk. But they were there and each one forces a moral decision.

Add to them, the homeless so far gone they don't even bother to pan-handle. They lie smothered in blankets/sleepingbags the dank colour of city-sidewalk. It gets even worse than that. Some --like the last time I was there, lay right on the sidewalk without any blanket at all. Just them on bare concrete.

Here's the point. I'm convinced I can go to T.O. this evening, lie down on a busy corner, close my eyes and people'd walk right past, around and over me.

Or is that an "irrational conclusion" I've reached?

And yes, you hear the line about street people wanting to be out there like that --that you can't do "anything with them"... but they are People. When I see their plight, I'm reminded of our Great-White-North-Hypocrisy.

Mega-ultra-fandamntastic condo projects spring up all around --real estate boom times. And we have fellow Canadians sleeping on bare concrete "real estate".

City governments talk about place-making, creative partnerships --attracting businesses, talking up Our City. But here's my irrational conclusion. City governments don't care about the people who need them most.

And we've accepted that lack-of-caring as The Norm.

When we hear people from out of town complain about the city based on some ridiculous things that happened to them on their trip, we're quick to say they're jumping to irrational conclusions.

Are things different now since I was last there? Can I walk down Yonge without seeing The Dichotomy?

Dichotomy

1 : a division into two especially mutually exclusive or contradictory groups or entities <the dichotomy between theory and practice>; also : the process or practice of making such a division <dichotomy of the population into two opposed classes>

And please don't tell me The Dichotomy occurs everywhere. That only makes me feel worse.

P.S. I'm not dumping on T.O. The Dichotomy is alive if not well, in "THE BEST CITY IN CANADA! -MISSISSAUGA!".

 

[SD2]

Perhaps not, but when does "quite a few times" become "the norm"? Especially when you pair your experiences with those of other people.

Something can happen to you a number of times and still not be considered the norm. While I've had a number of experiences with wanabee thugs (or perhaps real ones, wouldn't really know) giving me a staredown, it's a rare occurrance, and it hasn't happened in quite a long time. I've been using public transit (and lived in Toronto, for that matter) for my entire life. If I can recall 5-10 times it's happened, that really can't be considered the "norm".

The biggest negative to public transit as I see it is the PUBLIC uses it. With public transit you are forced to sit in a mobile-box with some people who --if they approached you while you were in your car, you'd quickly roll up the windows.

That doesn't make sense to me.

That's nothing more than a stereotype. The vast majority of those who use public transit are regular people, most of whom I'd have no problem talking to (and a number who I'd enjoy talking to quite a bit .)

Besides, there's context to consider - it's expected that you'll be sharing public transit with others, while it's not expected that you'll have anyone walking up to you while you're in a car.

The second-biggest negative is that you can be accosted in a bus/subway car full of people and it's the rare individual who'd come to your aid. The concept of there being "safety in numbers" works to some degree but --when you need help or witnesses, most often you're staring at thin air.

I've never seen someone attacked in the subway - and I've been using it my entire life.

There have been moments when some stranger would harrass another, sitting quietly by themselves. As I mentioned, however, this isn't the norm, and more often than not people have spoken up.

I remember the last few times I walked Yonge Street (five/six years ago) teens shuffling around in packs. One one occasion, a serious fight had broken out and one man was lying on the sidewalk. Police (thankfully) were there calming the situation.

Then there was the gauntlet of pan-handlers --not a one who was remotely aggressive-- didn't even talk. But they were there and each one forces a moral decision.

Add to them, the homeless so far gone they don't even bother to pan-handle. They lie smothered in blankets/sleepingbags the dank colour of city-sidewalk. It gets even worse than that. Some --like the last time I was there, lay right on the sidewalk without any blanket at all. Just them on bare concrete.

Here's the point. I'm convinced I can go to T.O. this evening, lie down on a busy corner, close my eyes and people'd walk right past, around and over me.

Or is that an "irrational conclusion" I've reached?

But you obviously don't go to Yonge St. very often. You've let one experience 5-6 years ago convince you this is the norm. Of course there's a chance you could be attacked and no one would help - but there's also a decent chance that they would. Just because you experienced one instance doesn't mean that's just the way things are.

And yes, you hear the line about street people wanting to be out there like that --that you can't do "anything with them"... but they are People. When I see their plight, I'm reminded of our Great-White-North-Hypocrisy.

Mega-ultra-fandamntastic condo projects spring up all around --real estate boom times. And we have fellow Canadians sleeping on bare concrete "real estate".

City governments talk about place-making, creative partnerships --attracting businesses, talking up Our City. But here's my irrational conclusion. City governments don't care about the people who need them most.

And we've accepted that lack-of-caring as The Norm.

The problem with the homeless is that you truly don't know which ones want to be there and which ones don't. It's a complex problem and I don't think you'll find anyone who doesn't want to see the issue resolved. However, I don't think as an example it really applies here.

We're talking about a few isolated incidents being interpreted as the city going down the drain wrt public safety.

 

[fiendishlibrarian]

Are you suggesting that at Vic Park there are TTC constables on hand ready to come to your aid at one in the morning?

Given the chronic problems on the eastern end of the Bloor line (Vic Park, Warden and Kennedy), the answer is yes.

Bonus: you will be serenaded by Mozart or Beethoven as you witness said constables restoring order.

 

[Bogtrotter]

I find it strange that the TTC employees are 'powerless' to enforce any of the rules. I don't mean stop violence or wackos- but surely they have the mandate to tell a passenger to butt out their cigarette or tell a bunch of teenies to quiet down etc. Are they really 'powerless' to do anything or is it more becasue they can't be bothered? :\

 

[The Mississauga Muse]

Regarding my question:

Are you suggesting that at Vic Park there are TTC constables on hand ready to come to your aid at one in the morning?

fiendishlibrarian wrote:

Given the chronic problems on the eastern end of the Bloor line (Vic Park, Warden and Kennedy), the answer is yes.

Bonus: you will be serenaded by Mozart or Beethoven as you witness said constables restoring order.

Neat! Thanks for the info, fiendish.

(Hey, wyliepoon. Challenge. Head on down there at 1 am sometime, shoot video of TTC constables restoring order and then YOUTUBE it for us.)

 

[The Mississauga Muse]

Bogtrotter wrote:

I find it strange that the TTC employees are 'powerless' to enforce any of the rules. I don't mean stop violence or wackos- but surely they have the mandate to tell a passenger to butt out their cigarette or tell a bunch of teenies to quiet down etc. Are they really 'powerless' to do anything or is it more becasue they can't be bothered?

re: having the mandate to tell a passenger to butt out a cigarette. And why perhaps they don't.

Easy to answer that question! She CUTS and PASTES!...

Man killed for cigarette, court told
Nov. 22, 2006. 01:00 AM
PETER SMALL
COURTS BUREAU

A 31-year-old Mississauga man was beaten to death outside a west Toronto restaurant by young Halloween revellers in a fight over a cigarette, a court has been told.

"One of them said, `F—k you, you said you didn't have a cigarette,'" testified Dina Kogan, 23, girlfriend of the victim, Dmytro Nikolaenko.

I saw a cool T-shirt just the other day.

"I'M NOT PAID ENOUGH TO BE NICE TO YOU"

I suspect there are TTC personnel who believe they simply aren't paid enough to fuss over a smoking violation. Or obnoxious teens.

 

[The Mississauga Muse]

SD2 wrote:

But you obviously don't go to Yonge St. very often. You've let one experience 5-6 years ago convince you this is the norm. Of course there's a chance you could be attacked and no one would help - but there's also a decent chance that they would. Just because you experienced one instance doesn't mean that's just the way things are.

Agree completely. But there's a problem. If someone had me eat a fruit or vegetable for the first time and it twisted my innards for the next twenty-four hours, it'd take a truly gifted orator to convince me to try the thing again.

I don't like putting myself into negative-impact scenarios.

We're talking about a few isolated incidents being interpreted as the city going down the drain wrt public safety.

I think many people can answer how safe their city is by asking the following question.

Do I feel that my grandmother can take a stroll down (Name of Street here) and have her purse make it home along with her?

I appreciate the explanations and insights you gave me in your message, SD2.

Best wishes.

 

[cassiusa]

Do I feel that my grandmother can take a stroll down (Name of Street here) and have her purse make it home along with her?

In all honesty, there's very few streets that I'd worry about my grandmother's purse disappearing on.

 

[SD2]

Agree completely. But there's a problem. If someone had me eat a fruit or vegetable for the first time and it twisted my innards for the next twenty-four hours, it'd take a truly gifted orator to convince me to try the thing again.

I don't like putting myself into negative-impact scenarios.

But that's only reasonable, considering that you may be allergic to the said fruit. There may very well be a good reason why you'd never try the fruit again - because you can't.

The situation isn't the same as witnessing something 5 years prior and assuming that's just the way things are.

I think many people can answer how safe their city is by asking the following question.

Do I feel that my grandmother can take a stroll down (Name of Street here) and have her purse make it home along with her?

Personally, I'd have to agree with Cassius - there isn't a huge list of streets I'd worry about her purse getting stolen.

The whole issue we're discussing is whether or not it's irrational to deem an entire city unsafe due to a personal experience or experiences that aren't the norm. I can understand how a negative experience can colour someone's opinion, but that doesn't necessarily make it rational to do so. I've been to London (ON) three times and twice I've encoutered racism on two of the three trips. I don't think everyone in the city is like that based on my experiences, nor would I have a problem going back for a visit.

I appreciate the explanations and insights you gave me in your message, SD2.

Best wishes.

And I appreciate yours. Best wishes to you too.

 

[billy corgan19982]

Just an example of how crime in this city isn’t that terrible. My wife left her purse behind in the costco food court in Scarborough a couple of weeks ago and inside was several hundred dollars in cash, credit cards, cell phone, ID’s etc. She was half way home before she realized that her purse was missing so she went back to costco and it turns out that a group of teenagers sitting behind my wife noticed it and returned it the costco service desk. So there still are some decent people left in this city.