Pretty much the last gasp for TTC type & tile preservation

[junctionist]

I really thought about it, I even tried to imagine maybe liking them in the future. But...I just can't.

I've heard at least one negative opinion for every Spadina line station besides Downsview. There are people who don't like Dupont for the orange colour. Fortunately, if you don't like the tiles, there are other things to like about the station.

What you'd like to see by the platforms is work of art by Gordon Rayner, and I don't know if he'd even want to make it five times longer so that it would present all along the walls besides the platforms. The costs would probably be extremely high. I doubt it would happen even if the TTC had a lot of money.

 

[adma]

No, I understood what you were saying - I was just wondering if you actually felt the station was worth preserving. The larger conversation is about station preservation, let's not get too hung up on only talking about specific sections of it a time.

However, because you mentioned Dupont, I raised that it should be viewed in the context of the whole 1978 Spadina line--because that "specific section" is exceptional.

Remember that you said

So what other stations from the Spadina line should be included? St. Patrick? Downsview? Glencairn?

St. Patrick may be part of the Y-U-S line, but it isn't part of the "Spadina Line".

(And besides, I'd bunch up St. Patrick with Queen's Park: the "tube twins"...)

 

[TKTKTK]

However, because you mentioned Dupont, I raised that it should be viewed in the context of the whole 1978 Spadina line--because that "specific section" is exceptional.

Remember that you said



St. Patrick may be part of the Y-U-S line, but it isn't part of the "Spadina Line".

(And besides, I'd bunch up St. Patrick with Queen's Park: the "tube twins"...)

Personally, I'm more interested in talking about station preservation than you trying to obtusely split hairs. Different strokes for different folks.

Do you have an opinion on St. Patrick from a preservation standpoint, or just facts on what stage of construction it was built during?

 

[TKTKTK]

I've heard at least one negative opinion for every Spadina line station besides Downsview. There are people who don't like Dupont for the orange colour. Fortunately, if you don't like the tiles, there are other things to like about the station.

What you'd like to see by the platforms is work of art by Gordon Rayner, and I don't know if he'd even want to make it five times longer so that it would present all along the walls besides the platforms. The costs would probably be extremely high. I doubt it would happen even if the TTC had a lot of money.

yeah, TEMPO. It doesn't have to be present along all the walls, either. The current tile work is hardly all-encompassing (thankfully). I'd just like to see the art budget used more at track level than at station level.

 

[adma]

Personally, I'm more interested in talking about station preservation than you trying to obtusely split hairs. Different strokes for different folks.

Do you have an opinion on St. Patrick from a preservation standpoint, or just facts on what stage of construction it was built during?

Sure. Why not St. Patrick? Joe Clark and Matt Blackett and the rest of the subway-preservation bunch would go for it. In fact, I'd suggest that prior to the Spadina line's construction, St. Paddy and Queenie Park together were probably the most "popular" subway stations in Toronto, because they were the only ones to take on a "tube" form--thus invoking romantic associations with underground travel in London, Paris, etc. And considering all that's befallen the system over the ages, the fact that they maintain so much of their 1963 metal-panelled platform-level integrity is impressive--indeed, the proposed AGOification of St. Patrick might potentially be even more tragic than the ROMification of Museum.

But honestly; why are you so obtuse regarding the "stage of construction" matter? It's like you're regarding each station as objects to be judged on individual merits, totally devoid of historical context. Sure, different strokes for different folks; but that's truly an amateurish way to go about the "station preservation" thing.

Look: with the Spadina line, it matters, because that was Toronto's attempt to match Montreal at its high-style custom-design game. It was a landmark in the evolution of the Toronto subway, and the talk of the town when it opened--the ROM Crystal or OCAD table-top of its day. And from today's standpoint, that's no slur on the earlier phases of the subway--even if the more hardcore Joe Clarkian perspective might feel a little dicey about the Spadina line because from a 1978 standpoint, it was a slur on the earlier phases of the subway...

 

[TKTKTK]

But honestly; why are you so obtuse regarding the "stage of construction" matter? It's like you're regarding each station as objects to be judged on individual merits, totally devoid of historical context. Sure, different strokes for different folks; but that's truly an amateurish way to go about the "station preservation" thing.

I'm being obtuse? You side-stepped talking about St. Patrick for a page because it wasn't specifically in the line mentioned. Get a grip

If you want to be nasty send it in a pm, otherwise let's keep it goodness and light here, eh?

 

[adma]

Listen. Before I raised the point, did you have any clue about the history of the Spadina Line? By what you were posting, evidently not...

 

[TKTKTK]

Listen. Before I raised the point, did you have any clue about the history of the Spadina Line? By what you were posting, evidently not...

Listen, what part of me making fun of you being so crotchety are you missing? Is this a Roast? Should you be going out of your way to aggressively mock people for no reason? Especially when they're obviously already interested in the subject? The history we're talking about is Toronto's, not yours, so I don't understand why you're so possessive of it. I've never claimed to know all things about every aspect of our city, so I don't think it's appropriate to try and throw that back in my (or someone else's) face. One of the great things about this forum is the potential for learning and sharing knowledge - something you seem to feel is beneath you.

You have a lot of knowledge to share, but you choose to do it in the most wasteful and insulting way possible. What a shame.

If you still have a bit of bile and vitriol to share, please put it in a private message. You're embarrassing.

 

[adma]

If you were a casual visitor here, I'd understand. But given your degree of involvement in UT transit/subway/stylistic debates, it seems profoundly astonishing that the unique case of the 1978 Spadina line never, until now, sunk in with you. (Though maybe it says something about Toronto's stubborn inability to celebrate itself, that the Spadina line's uniqueness has been near-forgotten 30 years later, at least among those who weren't there at the time or who haven't been motivated to surf sites like Transit Toronto--there's an odd, ironic parallel with the myopia over the B-D line, etc.)

 

[TKTKTK]

If you were a casual visitor here, I'd understand. But given your degree of involvement in UT transit/subway/stylistic debates, it seems profoundly astonishing that the unique case of the 1978 Spadina line never, until now, sunk in with you. (Though maybe it says something about Toronto's stubborn inability to celebrate itself, that the Spadina line's uniqueness has been near-forgotten 30 years later, at least among those who weren't there at the time or who haven't been motivated to surf sites like Transit Toronto--there's an odd, ironic parallel with the myopia over the B-D line, etc.)

I'm not here to show off my knowledge, or pretend to know things I don't. I'm here because I'm curious about our city, and I learn new things in nearly every conversation. You being condescending is a real roadblock to that. For me and, I'm sure, for others.

Back on topic though:
I'm not sure I understand the parallel? Is it the resistance to preserving both lines in total?

 

[Chuck]

Hang in there, I've been bitten by adma as well. Apparently I was cryogenically frozen decades ago, and am currently a grumpy middle aged man. No hard feelings though, it's all in good anonymous fun!

Back on topic, Dupont is a fantastic station. Not only is it unique, but orange is my favourite colour. It's no surprise that I also like my home station, St. Clair.

 

[adma]

I'm not sure I understand the parallel? Is it the resistance to preserving both lines in total?

Maybe the parallel's more in the underlying naivety, i.e. if you don't grasp the broader history of the subway, it lessens the authority you might have re suggestions about subway makeovers etc.

That's why I'd rather advocate a historically-aware "makeover" in the way we perceive the subway, rather than of the stations themselves...

 

[TKTKTK]

Maybe the parallel's more in the underlying naivety, i.e. if you don't grasp the broader history of the subway, it lessens the authority you might have re suggestions about subway makeovers etc.

Oh stop it. Your urban planning and transit dilettantism is no more authoritative than mine.

That's why I'd rather advocate a historically-aware "makeover" in the way we perceive the subway, rather than of the stations themselves...

Oh, the whole idea that it isn't the stations themselves, it's just us? It's strange, because I agree with that sentiment when it comes to griping about utility poles, cracked sidewalks, and the general not-golf-and-country-club state of our streets. But the subway seems like an opportunity to make an impression. They're very honest, but they're maybe *too* honest, especially for a mode of transportation that is rather luxe.

I would much prefer if the stations kept changing and adapting to suit our needs, and to suit technology and (to a degree) changed tastes. I think it's important to keep the touchstones to our past, but it's silly to be slaves to them. Having said that, the city (or I suppose we) need to get serious about naming specific cases for preservation and restoration. I skeptical that it can be successfully approached from a whole-line perspective though.

 

[TKTKTK]

Sure. Why not St. Patrick? Joe Clark and Matt Blackett and the rest of the subway-preservation bunch would go for it. In fact, I'd suggest that prior to the Spadina line's construction, St. Paddy and Queenie Park together were probably the most "popular" subway stations in Toronto, because they were the only ones to take on a "tube" form--thus invoking romantic associations with underground travel in London, Paris, etc. And considering all that's befallen the system over the ages, the fact that they maintain so much of their 1963 metal-panelled platform-level integrity is impressive--indeed, the proposed AGOification of St. Patrick might potentially be even more tragic than the ROMification of Museum.

St. Patrick was always my favourite station growing up. I loved the tubes, the protected-feeling gallery in the middle, and the green.

 

[adma]

Oh, the whole idea that it isn't the stations themselves, it's just us? It's strange, because I agree with that sentiment when it comes to griping about utility poles, cracked sidewalks, and the general not-golf-and-country-club state of our streets. But the subway seems like an opportunity to make an impression. They're very honest, but they're maybe *too* honest, especially for a mode of transportation that is rather luxe.

I would much prefer if the stations kept changing and adapting to suit our needs, and to suit technology and (to a degree) changed tastes. I think it's important to keep the touchstones to our past, but it's silly to be slaves to them. Having said that, the city (or I suppose we) need to get serious about naming specific cases for preservation and restoration. I skeptical that it can be successfully approached from a whole-line perspective though.

Yet...you've already been tripped up by historical naivety. Your perspective was formulated under said naivety. In the process, the Spacing-subway-button gang's left you breathing dust.

And what's so (a) "rather luxe" about the specific mode of transportation, or (b) deficient about the existing system in "suiting our needs"? (I certainly wouldn't call New York's subway "rather luxe".)

And what's "slavery", anyway? And why so skeptical?

If anything, I'd recommend that a fine regard for whatever may constitute subway heritage ought to be approached from a more holistic whole-*system* perspective, with extreme makeovers and aesthetic overhauls the exception rather than the rule. Leave well enough alone, and let the trickle-up of the Spacing-subway-button sensibility do the rest--and let what happened to the 1954 Yonge line in the 1980s stand as a warning.

"Specific cases" is too token and patronizingly prima donna, as in "Lookit me! I'm a Heritage Subway Station!"