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PM Justin Trudeau's Canada

What is the replacement cost of a building like this?

$277 million from the looks of it.

This is a project I agree with. Operating costs are incredibly high these days. Not building an efficient building when you're rebuilding from scratch is just stupid. Even industry does the exact same thing. The added cost to make a building carbon neutral is nowhere close to the lifetime energy costs.

Of note, this isn't some new Liberal policy. The government was doing the exact same thing when procuring or rebuilding buildings under Harper.
 
I want a clear understanding of what threat it is that we are going to ask the military to combat, first...

Our defence policies are not a secret. This government and its predecessor have both laid out clear guidelines on what lines of tasking are and level of effort/contribution expected.

The heart of the matter is whether these policies and resources committed are appropriate to a G8 economy and Five Eyes/NATO power.

There is new 'few billion'; to provide renewal of existing kit, enhance polar/arctic capability, finally replace our aging combat aircraft is already a large increase from today's expenses.

It's actually not a large increase at all. Defence spending in absolute terms is actually lower than it was during the war in Afghanistan. And we are still struggling with recapitalization of worn out kit.

To put this in perspective, if we increased spending to match Italy, which expends 1.5% of GDP on its military to our 1.3%, that would be an annualized increase of 2.5B or so.

Personally, as someone in uniform, that's really all that we would need. That extra $2.5 billion would actually do a ton to rebuild buildings on bases falling apart, massively improve training, fix a broken supply system where troops can't even get proper uniforms sometimes or aircraft sit grounded for weeks for a lack of spares, and induct some new capabilities that we need (UAVs for surveillance, amphibious carriers on each coast, space surveillance, force wide cyber, etc.).

But its worth pointing out, this is already the penciled in number in 2027 according the Federal spending estimates.

First, let me point out that are our defence spending is not 1.3% as most Canadians understand it. The Liberals rebaselined the definition to include the RCMP and Veterans Affairs pensions, claiming that this was more in line with NATO reporting (debateable), and so spending went up from 1% to 1.3% overnight. Next, talking about spending penciled in 2027 is utterly deceptive BS when this government has deferred billions in defence spending. Would you think it okay for example, if Doug Ford came by and said the province was going to defer billions in education and transit spending for a decade or more:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/liberal-budget-military-2017-1.4035424

It's particularly bad when you consider how politicized our procurement system and that it will take a decade (or two and a half decades in the case of a Sea King replacement) to actually induct new equipment and capabilities from project launch.

1. Pretending that Canada has a capable military that is a material contributor to our security; and

We are well past that point. It's why we didn't get a Security Council seat. And probably won't in the future. I've dealt with military officers and diplomats from the rest of the world. They see us as America's pet more than say America's sibling (like the UK). And as the de facto American dependancy we are, a lot of what happens in the Arctic or Pacific near us, is more frankly discussed with the US than Canada. The rest of the world isn't stupid.

Heck, our Arctic waters are a literal playground for nuclear submarines. And half of them are our allies. French, British, American, Russian and Chinese. They all play up there. The only ones not up there are us. I've literally met more American Navy personnel who've seen the Arctic and the North Pole than Canadians.

2. Not provoking the Americans to completely lose patience with our free-riding

LOL. Americans don't have emotions on this. I've been at discussions with American naval officers talking about plans to deploy carrier groups in the Arctic to counter the Chinese, in a post-climate change world. They have these discussions as though Canada does not exist. They will not tolerate approaches to the continent not being secured. Simple as that. If Canada won't spend what is necessary to buy and crew the kit needed to do the job, they will and they won't ask our permission to do it.

Many argue that modern air-independent submarines would be much more capable at asserting/defending our arctic territory, albeit at a higher price tag.

Nuclear subs would be best. AIP is a decent second choice though, and really the only choice for a country with no experience operating nuclear vessels. Ideally, we'd get something like Short Fin Barracuda which the Australians bought from the French. It's a nuclear submarine with the propulsion switched out to AIP.

g. Similarly, with our expeditionary needs (military and humanitarian), a couple of joint support ship (Mistral-class et al, not simply a renamed oiler) would enhance our ability to deliver equipment, aid, etc.
The cost escalation in this area is huge.

It's really not as much to acquire these vessels as people think. There was strong interest in the CAF to buy the Mistrals specifically:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/navy-defence-ships-purchase-france-mistral-1.3435803

The Conservatives, unfortunately, passed on this. And Egypt bought both carriers for 950 million Euros (or less than the increase in cost of the Scarborough Subway):

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...y-intended-for-russia/?utm_term=.fa7776eb89f8

The real issue for us with carriers is finding the personnel to crew them. Our navy maybe > 10 000 personnel, but we only have about 3000 active sailors. It's getting to the point where our special forces are actually larger than our active navy.

At the height of the Cold War, we had in the order of 400 fast jet aircraft.

Aircraft and pilots were a lot cheaper, a lot more disposable, a lot less reliable and a lot less capable back then. A fleet of 80 F-35s is much more capable than 400 Voodoos.
 
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There is absolutely no magic in 2% except fueling arms sales for the military-industrial complex.

If this was our national view, why did we agree to this as a NATO target. Rather deceptive of us to agree to a target we have no intention of meeting.

But the again, this is a Canadian tradition I guess. See Millennium Development Goals, Kyoto protocols, Paris accords, etc.

Canada spends a highly respectable 1.3%, a top 20 spender on military world wide, is the #21 ranked military in the power index cited above, and that compares with our population at 38th.

Canada, the second largest country in the world, with the longest coastline in the world, is literally the only country in the G8 without any amphibious capabilities. For our size, we also have very limited maritime surveillance, space surveillance, space comms and subsurface capabilities.

We are also responsible for half of the continental approaches to the US homeland. If we don't want the US unilaterally dictating policy in the Arctic as the ice opens up, or on our Pacific and Atlantic Coasts, we had better be prepared to hold our own up there. This is going to become particularly poignant as they Chinese enhance their blue water naval capabilities and start venturing into the Arctic. And the US is ramping up.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...sia-china-military-defence-nato-a8726976.html

A modest, strategic increase in investment to deal with replacing badly aged combat aircraft, and stepping up arctic capability is reasonable. A suggestion for much more is grossly irresponsible.

We aren't even really doing that. You think half a dozen armed "slushbreakers" with half the firepower of the original counts as "reasonable"?

I wouldn't argue for a $12.5B increase in spending. But I would argue for an increase of about $5B with at least 80% of that going towards procurement, recapitalization and modernization. There are capabilities we sincerely need that nobody wants to even talk about because the funding won't be entertained and could be entirely funded with that kind of boost in funding. We should have an amphibious carrier on each coast. We should have at least half a dozen large subs. We need a squadron of large UAVs for maritime surveillance on each coast (and a Global Hawk costs as much as an F-35). We need to massive increase our tactical helicopter lift capabilities to move the army around. We need our own space based comms and surveillance assets. We need armed attack/recce helicopters to escort our Chinooks on "peacekeeping" missions like Mali. All that and more could actually be achieved for a modest increase.

Does all that sound like a lot? Consider that most of those capabilities are what the Australians field. And they just have the population of Ontario and Quebec combined, for a smaller country than ours.
 
Personally, as someone in uniform, that's really all that we would need. That extra $2.5 billion would actually do a ton to rebuild buildings on bases falling apart, massively improve training, fix a broken supply system where troops can't even get proper uniforms sometimes or aircraft sit grounded for weeks for a lack of spares, and induct some new capabilities that we need (UAVs for surveillance, amphibious carriers on each coast, space surveillance, force wide cyber, etc.).

That seems like an entirely reasonable 'ask' to me; different from what some others here (not you) were on about.

First, let me point out that are our defence spending is not 1.3% as most Canadians understand it. The Liberals rebaselined the definition to include the RCMP and Veterans Affairs pensions, claiming that this was more in line with NATO reporting (debateable), and so spending went up from 1% to 1.3% overnight.

I would tend to think the RCMP don't belong in this figure. Pensions for members of the military would seem more reasonable. But the key, of course, is an apples-to-apples comparison when comparing our expenditures w/those of others.

You would likely be more fit to discuss that than I.

Nuclear subs would be best. AIP is a decent second choice though, and really the only choice for a country with no experience operating nuclear vessels. Ideally, we'd get something like Short Fin Barracuda which the Australians bought from the French. It's a nuclear submarine with the propulsion switched out to AIP.

Am I out to lunch for thinking drone subs would be better than crewed? The amount of space and cost on a sub to service a human crew w/air and food and just space is material.

If one could preserve the surveillance function, with room for a few torpedos.......and remotely control the sub from a base or naval vessel wouldn't that be preferable?

The real issue for us with carriers is finding the personnel to crew them. Our navy maybe > 10 000 personnel, but we only have about 3000 active sailors. It's getting to the point where our special forces are actually larger than our active navy.

Is that percentage of active sailors reasonable?
 
If this was our national view, why did we agree to this as a NATO target. Rather deceptive of us to agree to a target we have no intention of meeting.

But the again, this is a Canadian tradition I guess. See Millennium Development Goals, Kyoto protocols, Paris accords, etc.

Most countries which have pledged this goal have not met it.

As to the other goals, its a shame we didn't meet those, but again, most countries failed to. That's not an excuse, but I do dislike singling out Canada's shortcomings this regard without proper context.


We aren't even really doing that. You think half a dozen armed "slushbreakers" with half the firepower of the original counts as "reasonable"?

I wouldn't argue for a $12.5B increase in spending. But I would argue for an increase of about $5B with at least 80% of that going towards procurement, recapitalization and modernization. There are capabilities we sincerely need that nobody wants to even talk about because the funding won't be entertained and could be entirely funded with that kind of boost in funding. We should have an amphibious carrier on each coast. We should have at least half a dozen large subs. We need a squadron of large UAVs for maritime surveillance on each coast (and a Global Hawk costs as much as an F-35). We need to massive increase our tactical helicopter lift capabilities to move the army around. We need our own space based comms and surveillance assets. We need armed attack/recce helicopters to escort our Chinooks on "peacekeeping" missions like Mali. All that and more could actually be achieved for a modest increase.

Does all that sound like a lot? Consider that most of those capabilities are what the Australians field. And they just have the population of Ontario and Quebec combined, for a smaller country than ours.

You had me in the previous post when you agreed to 2.5B.........5B is getting a bit rich.....can we split it down the middle at 3.75B and call it a day? LOL

Also, I did not suggest that we had funded militarized ice breakers. I suggested we should, and that's something I could support.

I would not debate you on specific military tech choices..........I'm completely out of my depth.

That said, on broad capabilities........Yes to UAVs, Helicopter Lift, and something that serves the purpose of your 6 subs, plus surveillance.

I'll ask for your sell on the amphibious capability, as I'm unclear why that would be a priority.
 
That seems like an entirely reasonable 'ask' to me; different from what some others here (not you) were on about.

My ideal would be about $5B added. Would bring us to about 1.7% of GDP. We need a few billion a year right now just to recapitalize what we have right now. I've literally worked in hangars with abestos ceilings because nobody has found funding to replace that building since World War II. Our general military training if you're assigned to an office (like I am at present) is literally one day at the range with 50 rounds, per year. That's truly pathetic. Boosting by $2.5 billion would address issues like this. Basically captial preservation of what we have and stopping skill fade. Getting to the level of capabilities we should have for our economic status, geography and the government's stated foreign policy goals would be about $5B by my estimate.

I would tend to think the RCMP don't belong in this figure.

Ah but you see. Technically the RCMP is a gendarmerie, a paramilitary force. So they can be counted. Never mind that their actual capabilities are nowhere close to French Gendarmerie, Spanish Civil Guard or Italian Carabinierie.

This was Liberal (no pun intended) cop-out in my opinion. If they want to argue the RCMP should be included, then fund them to have the same capabilities as their foreign counterparts.

Am I out to lunch for thinking drone subs would be better than crewed? The amount of space and cost on a sub to service a human crew w/air and food and just space is material.

If one could preserve the surveillance function, with room for a few torpedos.......and remotely control the sub from a base or naval vessel wouldn't that be preferable?

Drones really aren't as far along as people think. And we are decades away from even discussing how to replace a fully crewed sub with a fully automated armed vessel.

Is that percentage of active sailors reasonable?

Entirely. There are fixed logistics costs regardless of the size of your sailing navy. And a lot of those billets exist in support organizations to support the Navy at sea.

Example of this. Your tech staff who manage your fleet is the same size whether that fleet has 5 ships or 10 ships. You still just need one engineer look at the propulsion system on that fleet.
 
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You had me in the previous post when you agreed to 2.5B.........5B is getting a bit rich.....can we split it down the middle at 3.75B and call it a day? LOL

It all comes down to how much we are willing to let the Americans dictate policy in our backyard and/or how much we genuinely desire to participate in the international sphere. The days we can commit a few troops on some sleepy peacekeeping mission are gone.

And heck, if we aren't going to participate internationally or are willing to give up our sovereignty can we at least do it in a formalized way? If we're not going to at least have a reasonably capable force, then I am all for this:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-election-2015-military-integration-canada-us-1.3248594

Because right now let's face it, any major event in Canada would probably see a major deployment of American forces in Canada. Say there was an earthquake in Vancouver, for example. An American carrier parked off the coast would be more capable than anything the CAF could bring for days. And they've got several parked in Puget Sound just down the way.

lso, I did not suggest that we had funded militarized ice breakers. I suggested we should

While not quite ice breakers, what we have are pretty effectively an equivalent capability:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_DeWolf-class_offshore_patrol_vessel

The problem is that this ship came in at twice the cost and half the armament of the original Norvegian Svalbard class it was based on. This should give you some idea of why grumbling and dissatisfaction started and lead to the Mark Norman affair with the Liberals on a different file.

'll ask for your sell on the amphibious capability, as I'm unclear why that would be a priority.

Because it really is the only way for a large coastal nation to project force effectively, both at home and abroad. It's exponentially more expensive to move the same amount of personnel and equipment by air.

It's unfortunate that civvies tend to think of aircraft and amphibious carriers entirely as offensive capabilities. They are effectively mobile bases and command posts. Complete with maintenance and medical facilities. They become platforms to use in disaster relief. Transports for a major exercise or deployment. And yes, bases we sometimes use in offence (say Libya for example).
 
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Sorry - I thought the word "renovate" meant to renovate.
Apparently not. I guess they'll have to do a search on "replacement" building.

It's a renovation technically. It's just that they are gutting and replacing most of the systems, rebuilding and reconfiguring a lot of the building, etc. They are even adding space thanks to room freed up from replacing the buildings systems.

There's a great PSPC video.


Construction started in 2018. Will finish in 2022. This is just a politician using the opportunity to toot the government's horn. I don't see it as a huge deal. PSPC has long been pushing for more efficient buildings and consolidation of office space across the country. With lots of post-war buildings due for replacement, it's the perfect opportunity to consolidate offices to fewer locations and construct buildings with substantially lower lifecycle costs. They also make for healthier and more comfortable places to work, a nice bonus.

I work in a LEED Gold federal building at the moment. Compared to previous buildings, I find it both more comfortable and more productive to work in. The building is just better designed to facilitate meetings and teamwork. You don't feel cooped up, so less likely to want breaks. Etc. Way better than any previous office I've worked in personally...
 
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Susan Delacourt
@SusanDelacourt

It's not all that unusual for provinces to elect governments that aren't the same party as feds, btw. Just counted. While Harper's Conservatives were in power from 2006 to 2015, provincial Liberals won 13 elections, NDP 4. (Thread.) #cdnpoli

Plus, the circumstances behind each election result sometimes have nothing to do with how people felt about the federal government.
 
I don’t know, complaining about their NATO allies’ general failure to spend 2% of GDP on defence seems to have been a bipartisan constant for a long time. Though perhaps Trump is complaining more assertively.
The 2% target is not officially recognized anywhere. And the 2% is not a demonstration of military capability, for example Greece has reported that it could reach it by simply increasing the pensions paid to its generals.
 
It all comes down to how much we are willing to let the Americans dictate policy in our backyard and/or how much we genuinely desire to participate in the international sphere. The days we can commit a few troops on some sleepy peacekeeping mission are gone.

And heck, if we aren't going to participate internationally or are willing to give up our sovereignty can we at least do it in a formalized way? If we're not going to at least have a reasonably capable force, then I am all for this:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-election-2015-military-integration-canada-us-1.3248594

Because right now let's face it, any major event in Canada would probably see a major deployment of American forces in Canada. Say there was an earthquake in Vancouver, for example. An American carrier parked off the coast would be more capable than anything the CAF could bring for days. And they've got several parked in Puget Sound just down the way.

This is one thing those who like to sing the patriotic song without a willingness to pay the royalties seem to forget. The US will not leave themselves vulnerable with what they perceive as a weak flank. They will defend and protect their continental integrity on their terms and not worry about asking permission.

Our free-rider mentality can manifest itself much closer to home. There are many areas of Canadian Great Lakes waters where the fastest and most robust response will be from the US Coast Guard.
Partnerships and shared-responsibilities are wonderful but when one party always brings the main course and the other the napkins . . .
 

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