Pickering Airport (Transport Canada/GTAA, Proposed)

[Northern Light]

Maybe because it is literally being built? Shall I start a new forum.

Please.

By all means.

With some haste.

So long as it means we no longer need to deal w/the poster who considers himself to be a source; while providing somewhere between little and no evidence in support of same; and repeatedly trumpets the same thing, ad nauseum, and has for ages.

 

[Northern Light]

Maybe because it is literally being built? Shall I start a new forum, maybe call it Canada’s new aerotropolis? The aerotropolis around the airport is being built conforming to the PASZR. Water and sewer is being built, the innovation corridor has its first build.
While expected to be completed with private money, it has the full support of the province and local city governments. The feds are trying thier best to delay the actual airport itself until a politically opportune moment, but you can not deny that Canada’s first aerotropolis is under construction.

I can deny, and do deny.

The entire paragraph above, does not establish the last sentence, which is, in fact, a complete, total and utter fabrication.

There is no airport under construction.

There may be, one day.

Could be next month for all I know.

But its not today.

 

[micheal_can]

Maybe because it is literally being built? Shall I start a new forum, maybe call it Canada’s new aerotropolis? The aerotropolis around the airport is being built conforming to the PASZR. Water and sewer is being built, the innovation corridor has its first build.
While expected to be completed with private money, it has the full support of the province and local city governments. The feds are trying thier best to delay the actual airport itself until a politically opportune moment, but you can not deny that Canada’s first aerotropolis is under construction.

Can you provide links that are not sourced from your website that shows the construction?

Hamilton and Waterloo are both good examples of utility airports. Both provide local accessible aviation capacity in support of thier city’s economic activity.

Waterloo was Canada’s busiest airport in the last quarter of 2020, they hit 13,000 plus movements in November. Oshawa ( a mix of GA, flight training and utility operators) was not far behind.
Oshawas limitations, along with Buttonvilles potential closure ( 2030 ish) is why new local aviation capacity is now urgently needed.

and no, expecting an airport two hours drive away to fulfill the same role does not work.

My nearest airport is about an hour away. 2 hours for one is not unreasonable outside the GTA.

You still did not describe what a utility airport is.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

As the aerotropolis is the current model for airport development in the world it's not surprising that the proposed Pickering airport would follow this format.

Q; Doesn't the current proposed runway alignment take flights over Ajax, Oshawa, Markham, and Stouffville?

 

[MarkBrooks]

I can deny, and do deny.

The entire paragraph above, does not establish the last sentence, which is, in fact, a complete, total and utter fabrication.

There is no airport under construction.

There may be, one day.

Could be next month for all I know.

But its not today.

I know I need to be careful here, as ever time I bring up facts I seem to get banned.

but here goes, Some facts please let me know which ones you disagree with.

Look I don’t have a lot of time, but will try to express what I know , so if rapid fire:

I get that maybe you are not a fan of the city of Pickering aerotropolis plan but it is real and governing the direction of development, the feds hold the timing only on the airport itself and with the PASZR Influences the surrounding area.

the PASZR is not a fabrication, it is federal law that it governs and restricts the development in area in preparation for the airport.

the Veraine project is real and expects an airport, but may not be completely dependent on the airports success. Ditto for the innovation corridor.

The release of the seaton lands for development by the province, and the sign off by the region was under the condition that the developers fund the construction going on right now on the airport site to build the water and sewer lines. ( development levy).

The attempts of some to obscure this activity are noteworthy and perhaps the source of the confusion.

Specifically, We had a local MP try that “ assumed reality “ bit ( under the cover of a pandemic no less) When she misrepresented the ASA report as a passenger aviation issue. It didnt work. Personally I just think she was hoodwinked into making a mistake. That’s politics, it’s a rough game.

Next the petition she sponsored to cancel the airport failed, getting less than 1600 signatures after three months of trying out of a population of 700,000 in Durham region.

The entire region is being built and preppared around the airport, and I for one am looking forward to it. I am not alone, just ask the thousands living under Oshawa’s airports approach paths.

sure, the exact timeline is not set thanks to the pandemic but it’s not in the distance future, and phase 1 Has nothing to do with passenger aviation. Developers have already sunk $70 million into the prep and they will want their money back if the airport is canceled And What do you think happens if it is significantly delayed?

Some Developers have been trying for years to get the PASZR cancelled so they can just build more McMasions. Other developers are simply building to conform to the PASZR and planning for the opportunity ( see Veraine )

I get that some oppose this airport, got it.

but wishful thinking is not reality. Sure the federal government could cancel it tomorrow, force the region to replay the $70 million to the seaton developer, tell Veraine to stick it and release the lands to an anointed few farmers, but they havent and it dosnt look like they will. Who would Pay the political price on stopping the development of the whole region, canceling 150,000 new jobs and affordable housing for 120,000. Especially since all they need to do at this point is get out of the way.

It is ok to talk about all that, but ultimately this discussion/ topic is about the airport and the community being built around it in compliance with the airport zoning regulations. so I would suggest that pointing out the preparations underway is fair game.

If this thread is at its end, they lets move it to an aerotropolis posting.







.

 

[Northern Light]

I know I need to be careful here, as ever time I bring up facts I seem to get banned.

but here goes, Some facts please let me know which ones you disagree with.

Look I don’t have a lot of time, but will try to express what I know , so if rapid fire:

I get that maybe you are not a fan of the city of Pickering aerotropolis plan but it is real and governing the direction of development, the feds hold the timing only on the airport itself and with the PASZR Influences the surrounding area.

the PASZR is not a fabrication, it is federal law that it governs and restricts the development in area in preparation for the airport.

the Veraine project is real and expects an airport, but may not be completely dependent on the airports success. Ditto for the innovation corridor.

The release of the seaton lands for development by the province, and the sign off by the region was under the condition that the developers fund the construction going on right now on the airport site to build the water and sewer lines. ( development levy).

The attempts of some to obscure this activity are noteworthy and perhaps the source of the confusion.

Specifically, We had a local MP try that “ assumed reality “ bit ( under the cover of a pandemic no less) When she misrepresented the ASA report as a passenger aviation issue. It didnt work. Personally I just think she was hoodwinked into making a mistake. That’s politics, it’s a rough game.

Next the petition she sponsored to cancel the airport failed, getting less than 1600 signatures after three months of trying out of a population of 700,000 in Durham region.

The entire region is being built and preppared around the airport, and I for one am looking forward to it. I am not alone, just ask the thousands living under Oshawa’s airports approach paths.

sure, the exact timeline is not set thanks to the pandemic but it’s not in the distance future, and phase 1 Has nothing to do with passenger aviation. Developers have already sunk $70 million into the prep and they will want their money back if the airport is canceled And What do you think happens if it is significantly delayed?

Some Developers have been trying for years to get the PASZR cancelled so they can just build more McMasions. Other developers are simply building to conform to the PASZR and planning for the opportunity ( see Veraine )

I get that some oppose this airport, got it.

but wishful thinking is not reality. Sure the federal government could cancel it tomorrow, force the region to replay the $70 million to the seaton developer, tell Veraine to stick it and release the lands to an anointed few farmers, but they havent and it dosnt look like they will. Who would Pay the political price on stopping the development of the whole region, canceling 150,000 new jobs and affordable housing for 120,000. Especially since all they need to do at this point is get out of the way.

It is ok to talk about all that, but ultimately this discussion/ topic is about the airport and the community being built around it in compliance with the airport zoning regulations. so I would suggest that pointing out the preparations underway is fair game.

If this thread is at its end, they lets move it to an aerotropolis posting.







.

Fundamentally Mark, none of your facts are dependent on an Airport.

That doesn't mean one won't be built, but they are neither evidence that one will be, nor at any particular point in time.

In point of fact, almost all the development lands are more valuable without an airport than with one.

There is no financial risk involved there.

The sewage/water facilities are required for the development as much as or more than an airport.

***

What's problematic Mark, other than your endless boosterism; and your apparent belief that quoting yourself is a legitimate form of evidence (its not) is that you simply draw the wrong conclusions from the evidence.

The Scarborough Expressway was in the Official Plan of (Metro) Toronto for more than a generation.

Lands were actually purchased for, reserved for, and homes even demolished for said expressway.

Development proposals were made on the basis of that expressway going in.........(and passed).

Thirty odd years later, the plan was formally nixed; some of the assembled land has been sold off; other bits have become parkland.

This is not to suggest there won't be an airport, there may.

This is to suggest nothing you have indicated makes it certain; reveals a timeline, or is otherwise newsworthy.

Please stop inundating this forum with your propaganda.

Its a source of irritation for many.

(that's not anti-airport, its anti-boosterism, and anti thread bumping)

 

[micheal_can]

I know I need to be careful here, as ever time I bring up facts I seem to get banned.

How do you get banned?

 

[MarkBrooks]

Fundamentally Mark, none of your facts are dependent on an Airport.

That doesn't mean one won't be built, but they are neither evidence that one will be, nor at any particular point in time.

In point of fact, almost all the development lands are more valuable without an airport than with one.

There is no financial risk involved there.

The sewage/water facilities are required for the development as much as or more than an airport.

***

What's problematic Mark, other than your endless boosterism; and your apparent belief that quoting yourself is a legitimate form of evidence (its not) is that you simply draw the wrong conclusions from the evidence.

The Scarborough Expressway was in the Official Plan of (Metro) Toronto for more than a generation.

Lands were actually purchased for, reserved for, and homes even demolished for said expressway.

Development proposals were made on the basis of that expressway going in.........(and passed).

Thirty odd years later, the plan was formally nixed; some of the assembled land has been sold off; other bits have become parkland.

This is not to suggest there won't be an airport, there may.

This is to suggest nothing you have indicated makes it certain; reveals a timeline, or is otherwise newsworthy.

Please stop inundating this forum with your propaganda.

Its a source of irritation for many.

(that's not anti-airport, its anti-boosterism, and anti thread bumping)

How does posting once a month, and then answering questions ( including yours) count as inundating?

I don’t recall quoting anything other than the official plan, but I do admit that I do get excited when I see progress. It’s a new airport after, and I am a pilot. And flying in Canada is often the most carbon efficient way to travel long distances and the safest.

But my enthusiasm is in line with just the city of Pickering website. Nothing more.

Most would consider the failed petition to stop the airport news worthy.

I consider a picture I took of the oversized waterworks on the pickering lands being built yesterday, as newsworthy. But it is ok if you don’t.

I will make sure to keep my factual progress reports down to every couple of month or so.

 

[MarkBrooks]

As the aerotropolis is the current model for airport development in the world it's not surprising that the proposed Pickering airport would follow this format.

Q; Doesn't the current proposed runway alignment take flights over Ajax, Oshawa, Markham, and Stouffville?

Here is the zoning orientation, but the final version could change. The yellow line is the expected NEF 30. The approach surfaced are 3 km on a 1:60 slope. The areas zoned for a runway are twice as long, and wider than needed but that is what is in the PASZR( zoning regs).

So the short answer is no.

The longer answer is a bit more complicated based on the RNAV approach structure. I have some of the approach plate graphics from the Durham gateway proposal but I suspect that level of detail will be annoying to some.

 

[afransen]

I died.

There is no such thing as an aerotropolis.

 

[micheal_can]

I died.

There is no such thing as an aerotropolis.

Actually....

San Diego's airport is close to downtown which really makes the cityscape look different than most cities.

 

[MarkBrooks]

How do you get banned?

your asked the question, so I will answer it.

In my case I made a commonly accepted statement in aviation circles, that thanks to the effects of the pandemic we would need new utility aviation capacity that pickering airport represents. This of course has now come to pass, as oshawa traffic passed 2019 levels in sept 2020. The hangars in Buttonville are full. Oshawa is now in the process of culling a flight school to reduce traffic and noise. Waterloo is now the busiest airport in the country.

utility operators, cargo services for instance, or the specialty aircraft that I fly, the Kodiak or M600, are in high demand.

The moderator, who to my knowledge is not actively flying in the industry , and struggles like many do with the difference between utility and passenger aviation, had the opposing view, and since this forum is his narrative, I was banned For a month.

you can ask him if you u like.

it is important to remember that we are on a private forum, there is no guarantee of free speech on this forum. It is what it is, after all I am here to expand my view by seeing the world through the eyes Of others.

To be fair to the moderator, I understand that I am outside of the aviation bubble, but I occasionally forget that.

I have no doubt that If some of the folks that post here, showed up on one of aviation forums, they would quickly be called out and banned. unfortunately this is the information bubbles we live in.

that is why it is important to talk, and go outside of your bubble. That is the only way you will really find out what is going on.

 

[kyler]

Just here to express my support for the retention of this critical land as farmland to feed Ontario (and all of Canada).

For anyone else interested in voicing their support for the protection of farmland: https://landoverlandings.com/

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Here is the zoning orientation, but the final version could change. The yellow line is the expected NEF 30. The approach surfaced are 3 km on a 1:60 slope. The areas zoned for a runway are twice as long, and wider than needed but that is what is in the PASZR( zoning regs).

So the short answer is no.

The longer answer is a bit more complicated based on the RNAV approach structure. I have some of the approach plate graphics from the Durham gateway proposal but I suspect that level of detail will be annoying to some.

View attachment 297978

I suggest you sit in on the Pearson airport noise forums (whatever they call them now, used to be CENAC). They've got citizens well outside of YYZ's NEF contours complaining about noise, some live up to 10 miles from the airport.

My point being, you can show the NEF contours for the runways but as you've said the approach and departure patterns can and will put airliners in areas not in the NEF contours at flight levels as low as 5000 feet.

Now I'm not justifying the NIMBY'ist attitude towards airports but remember YYZ has been around for 80(?) odd years and the community has grown up around it, similarly no matter how you try to develop the Pickering airport site you will still encounter complaints from new residents towards airplane noise.

**EDIT**

I'd be interested in seeing the proposed RNAV approach/departure structure and pointing out where downwind and base legs pass over populated areas that are already complaining about being under Pearson's RNAV routes.

 

[just east of the creek]

Just here to express my support for the retention of this critical land as farmland to feed Ontario (and all of Canada).

For anyone else interested in voicing their support for the protection of farmland: https://landoverlandings.com/

Concur kyler. There needs to be a strong recognition that supposedly 'vacant land' (to use a common real estate description) has a value and a need that transcends this project, that is quite obviously not needed, and certainly does not need to be located in this location. Rural agricultural zoning, and we do not mean acres of truck parking, needs a strong rethink to more fully support and encourage strong agricultural uses that support both the local populations, the larger regional and countrywide populations, plus a strong export sector.