Dan416
Senior Member
I don't think wanting world class beaches is a fetish. Our beaches are nice, but they could be better.
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Torontovibe
Senior Member
Having a nice beach is a fetish? lol Tell that to people in Rio, Hong Kong, Sydney, Montreal, Miami and Monaco. Hell, even the beaches in scruffy Coney Island are cleaner and nicer than ours. If wanting to have have nice things is a crime, I'm guilty as charged. So, it's OK to want spectacular architecture but to want nice, well designed public spaces, in this case a beach, is superficial?
I want the best of everything in this city, that includes buildings, parks, beaches and I ain't apologizing for it. We deserve it! (and we can afford it, too)
buildup
Senior Member
""I want the best of everything in this city, that includes buildings, parks, beaches and I ain't apologizing for it. We deserve it! (and we can afford it, too)"
Why do we deserve the best of everything? What makes us so blessed - unless you are saying everyone, everywhere deserves the best of everything.
Why are you convinced we can afford it?
Why do we deserve the best of everything? What makes us so blessed - unless you are saying everyone, everywhere deserves the best of everything.
Why are you convinced we can afford it?
Tulse
Senior Member
adma
Superstar
But notice that other than Montreal, all those examples you list are by the ocean--and if you factor out Coney Island as well, they're in more obviously tropical/temperate climes, usually w/a "beach resort" culture already long in place
Under the circumstance, if you want to dis us for lacking Rio's beaches, you might as well dis us for lacking Rio's cosmetic-surgery-enhanced female-pulchritude norm. IOW there's more to healthy urbanism than the urbanistic equivalent of bolt-ons and obsessive-compulsive Brazilian waxing...
Torontovibe
Senior Member
OK, maybe "deserve" wasn't the best choice of words. Toronto is Canada's biggest and richest city. We are finally starting to pay more attention to design and improving our public spaces. I see all this as Toronto transforming itself into a great city, where good enough, just isn't good enough anymore. I think ALL cities should put some effort into being the best they can be. It's not always about money, sometimes it's just about the mind set and putting in the effort.
I guess there are many people who are OK with our more natural, rustic beaches and I'm fine with that. We have a lot of these types of beaches in the city, so is it too much to ask for only ONE beach that is designed to be beautiful, sexy, stylish or original? (variety is the spice of life, just give me some options)
Why can we afford it? Designing and building a great beach with amenities, is not something that costs hundreds of millions of dollars. I'm sure if there was an interest in this, along with some private sector involvement, it could be done very easily and for a reasonable price. Take the beautiful Sunnyside Pavilion (and beach) for instance. It's a great, historic building, yet it sits there, mostly unused. The second floor, overlooking the lake, is closed to the general public, yet it is public property. If that was developed properly, with a great pool, along with the beach and amenities, (maybe a new hotel along with it) that whole area could become a serious summer attraction. How many people take tourists out there for a visit now? ( nobody that I know) I never hear any friends even mention it or go out there for fun. It's sad that it sits there so ignored and unappreciated. This city still hasn't realized the great potential of our waterfront. It could be AMAZING!
Where some people walk by and see an aging structure and a scruffy beach, I see potential of what it could be. I think it would be very easy to turn this into a major attraction with great beach, from just a small investment of cash. The problem isn't money, it's apathy. Few people seem to care about public space in this city. Look at Nathan Phillip's Square. Half the city was fine with cinder block buildings but is that acceptable in a city that calls itself "World Class"? Also look at that Police Station on Dundas Street, with the small public space out front, being used as police parking. It could be transformed into a great public square or urban park. Right now, it's ugly as hell. At least put a few planters and benches in there.
I guess it's about how we see our city. I see Toronto as an emerging great city. (wishful thinking, delusional? lol) I really believe we need to expect more of ourselves and build smarter/better. Even in the face of Fordmania, I still see the importance of great design in our public spaces. We all know, that building a great beach in this city ain't gonna happen anytime soon but a guy can dream, can't he?
I'd prefer a nice beach on Lake Ontario but if we could get one at Downsview Park, I'd gladly take it.
Torontovibe
Senior Member
I'm not dissing us for lacking Rio's beaches. Of course, we are not a tropical city but we already have a lake and beaches. It's just we never put any effort into developing great public spaces on our lake. (until recently) There is no reason we can't have one nice, colourful, animated beach, for the 3 or 4 months of the year it's usable. Maybe we can develop a more lake oriented culture if we had better options. Not everybody wants to walk on stones, twigs and branches or look at rusty hunks of steel & concrete. Sheesh, some of you guys have such low expectations.
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gristle
Senior Member
Isn't there some sort of waterfront revitalization under way?
junctionist
Senior Member
Can we afford massive public space improvements? We can. Fundamentally, it takes a broad vision of what exactly we want (i.e. a well designed public realm from an aesthetic and functional standpoint) and a strategy for directing the available money towards improvement as well as raising new money. Taxes, development fees, provincial and federal grants, donations, bonds, public/private partnerships: that's how funding works. The national metropolis has a lot of leverage, for it is the business and cultural centre. A lot of funding streams haven't been utilized effectively, or they have been in select areas without a broader vision for the city. If you want some inspiration for what big Canadian city is capable of, look to Montreal. (You may have to get past the blurry vision of pointless bitterness and rivalry to see with your eyes what can be done.)
Do we deserve massive public realm improvements? We only deserve what we work to achieve.
Do we deserve massive public realm improvements? We only deserve what we work to achieve.
UrbanFervour
Active Member
Victoria Sq., Place Riopelle, Parc/Des Pins interechange, Bixi and the dedicated bike lanes... Montreal is starting to work on 30+ years of neglecting its public realm entirely... The city is still a big crumbling mess but Montrealers have an unbridaled LOVE for their city and they're happy to invest in it. Torontonians only seem to be 'warming up to' theirs.... maybe with more & more people living downtown in the coming years the priorities will shift.
Bogtrotter
Senior Member
I agree that Torontonians still do not embrace their waterfront nearly enough, the lake is significantly cleaner than it was and quite safe to swim in places. But I think it will be at least another decade or so for the majority of residents to see the lake as a recreational area again. I recall seeing archived photos of TO beach teeming with people on weekends- it would be great to see that again. It will never have a Bondi beach however!
Just an observation: the word Torontonian registers as a misspelling, yet Chicagoan or Washingtonian does not- what gives?
Just an observation: the word Torontonian registers as a misspelling, yet Chicagoan or Washingtonian does not- what gives?
TrickyRicky
Senior Member
It's interesting how people often state "we can't afford it" with respect to infrastructure and urban investment. They then site places like Europe and Asia and how they can afford it. The reality is that we can afford it, we in Toronto are more wealthy than all but a few tiny jursidictions in Europe and Asia.
Affording it is not an externality to fight against. The truth is we CHOOSE not to afford it. Meaning we choose to prioritize spending in other areas. We even choose the system of government and regulation that handcuffers our own ability to distribute funding.
Affording it is not an externality to fight against. The truth is we CHOOSE not to afford it. Meaning we choose to prioritize spending in other areas. We even choose the system of government and regulation that handcuffers our own ability to distribute funding.
Torontovibe
Senior Member
EXACTLY! You hit the nail on the head. It's all about priorities.
We could have a great beach, like Bondi Beach (minus the ocean) if we really put our mind to it.
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scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
If you mean the height, it's limited by the runway. If you mean the general sparseness and separation of everything, well, there's no good reason for that. The planning process in this city has to a degree been hijacked by public space concerns that emphasize quantity and a brute presence over quality. Everything has to be enveloped by 30+ feet of sidewalk, multiple rows of boulevard trees, and then another layer of linear parkettes. It might look nice in June, but it's not so nice in January. Downtown has seen some decent public spaces built recently, but the designs are not creeping their way up to the rest of the city yet.
You might also be referring to the convention centre-sized subway entrance huts. Maybe the overly grandiose plan would be useful if Downsview hosts another World Youth Day, but by developing so much of Downsview, we're really closing the door to it becoming the kind of permanent mega-gathering site that would recoup everything lost by oversizing the station and the parkettes around it. The Parc Downsview Park renderings look like a World's Fair plan, but we have no intention of doing anything of the sort with the land other than selling some off to developers for condos, subsidizing a few office buildings, nurturing a quaint pond and heritage forest, and building some kids' league facilities, all the while working around an aircraft plant and its semi-active runway. It's an okay plan on its own, but like the Bremner area, it just fills in a big empty space with a whole bunch of stuff that becomes yet another neighbourhood.
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sixrings
Senior Member
could barmbardier and woodbine change locations with each other.... then the area arround downsview parc wouldnt be limited to short buildings.