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Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

Allandale25 said:
Legal matters in the sense of coming to an agreement on using CN's property?
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Yes. Installing and running power to a kiosk on your own property involves three parties; the ONTC, the contractor they hired and Hydro One (maybe the municipality for a building permit - not sure). Plunking down a kiosk and running power to it on somebody else's property (CN) will involve lease agreements and easements involving third parties.

Where an existing station is now owned by a third party (private or municipality), there will need to be agreements regarding parking lot use and maybe use of appurtenant land to access the platform, depending on the footprint of property. This would also apply to third-party owned stations along the ONR, such as Temagami, but, again, fewer parties involved.


micheal_can said:
The platforms were never in good shape to begin with. I'd imagine if there is a safe spot, just outside of the construction area, they will stop there if the platforms are not fully built on opening day.

The other thing to remember is that it seems that many construction projects tend to go into December. It is almost as though they forgot we get snow. So, they still have a month. And, also in spring, they may start construction as early as March. So, there is about 3 construction months if they plan to open in May.
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There are the vestiges of platforms from previous service in some manner of condition. They may be heaved, cracked and weed-strewn but they are there in most cases. Whether infrastructure upgrades are seen as a show-stopper remains to be seen.

Properly done, they can pour concrete into the winter. If asphalt is needed, they are at the mercy of when the plants close for the season.
 
lenaitch said:
Yes. Installing and running power to a kiosk on your own property involves three parties; the ONTC, the contractor they hired and Hydro One (maybe the municipality for a building permit - not sure). Plunking down a kiosk and running power to it on somebody else's property (CN) will involve lease agreements and easements involving third parties.

Where an existing station is now owned by a third party (private or municipality), there will need to be agreements regarding parking lot use and maybe use of appurtenant land to access the platform, depending on the footprint of property. This would also apply to third-party owned stations along the ONR, such as Temagami, but, again, fewer parties involved.




There are the vestiges of platforms from previous service in some manner of condition. They may be heaved, cracked and weed-strewn but they are there in most cases. Whether infrastructure upgrades are seen as a show-stopper remains to be seen.

Properly done, they can pour concrete into the winter. If asphalt is needed, they are at the mercy of when the plants close for the season.
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If what I saw on my trip between Englehart and North Bay stations, they are using concrete at all of them. So, that opens the window even bigger.
 
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lenaitch said:
Ha. I was just going to post this because I was through town today. I also noticed the nearby crossing (Taylor Rd.) is protected by arms. I believe that is fairly new as well. They are not in the Streetview image dated Sep 2024.

I saw no activity at Washago when I drove by and was through South River a few weeks ago and saw no sign of activity.
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So, it sounds like they may be still on schedule for a May opening.
 
Allandale25 said:
Gravenhurst.

IS IT TOO LATE TO SAVE HERITAGE ‘TRAIN STATION’ IN GRAVENHURST WITH NORTHLANDER’S RETURN THE CATALYST FOR TOWN TRANSPORTATION HUB? BOB BARNES THINKS NOT – MuskokaTODAY.com

muskokatoday.com muskokatoday.com
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It seems the ball would be in the town's court (it owns the building), and it sounds like they aren't too interested in playing. If the town was willing to operate and staff a station facility, the proponents might have something. Otherwise the agreement for the kiosk is between ONR and CN (assuming CN still owns the plot where it will sit).

Although the proposed Gravenhurst stop times aren't bad (0840 and 2045), even if the buses used it, it makes little economic sense to pay to operate a station building.

The article also says that the Bracebridge station was torn down 'a few years ago'. The kiosk was torn down (it was kinds like Washago). The actual station was torn down decades ago.
 
The station is protected as a heritage structure, which means it will survive. But the common strategy for heritage properties is to repurpose.
Maintaining the old station as a commercial property that generates rental income will serve the town well and provide funds for the structure’s upkeep - whereas using it as the train station, it becomes a cost item that the city has to support from tax revenue.
In the context of the new train, the premise of anyone “operating a station” is archaic and uneconomic. Provide a station agent for two events a day? Heat and light a building that is oversize for its function? Pay a janitor to clean it?
The new kiosks with auto ticket machine are better scaled to the service, and are cheaper and simpler to maintain. And probably a lower cost to maintain.
Nostalgia aside, nobody operates a train starion for such a small ridership.

- Paul
 
ShonTron said:
When the Gravenhurst station was last used, there was a coffee shop inside, and Ontario Northland buses stopped there as well. The coffee shop was also a ticket agency, but even then, the station passenger functions were secondary to the business.
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The current tenants are a vet clinic (in what I think was the old 'freight shed'), and and a taxi service. There used to be a restaurant but I don't think it is there anymore.

Even if the buses used it, a station would have to be open from about 0500 to 0200 for ten events pre day with no other business or things to do.

Cochrane station serves two trains and is tied into the hotel and yard operations. Englehart is the centre of their rail operations. ONR lists its North Bay station as 24 hours. If that's true, no clue what the staff does all day.

Wanting a station with an agent, ticket counter and all the rest is a nostalgic throwback.
 
crs1026 said:
The station is protected as a heritage structure, which means it will survive. But the common strategy for heritage properties is to repurpose.
Maintaining the old station as a commercial property that generates rental income will serve the town well and provide funds for the structure’s upkeep - whereas using it as the train station, it becomes a cost item that the city has to support from tax revenue.
In the context of the new train, the premise of anyone “operating a station” is archaic and uneconomic. Provide a station agent for two events a day? Heat and light a building that is oversize for its function? Pay a janitor to clean it?
The new kiosks with auto ticket machine are better scaled to the service, and are cheaper and simpler to maintain. And probably a lower cost to maintain.
Nostalgia aside, nobody operates a train starion for such a small ridership.

- Paul
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The shelters will be more than plenty for most stops along the route. They are certainly an improvement compared to what VIA Rails provides here in Northern Ontario.

The waiting facilities in White River, Longlac, Nakina, Parry Sound, Minaki, and other intermediate stops are all closed to the travelling public.

I have been critical in my columns about some of the decisions the government has made, but I think they have taken the right approach when it comes to building shelters versus restoring old stations. They may be basic, but they will serve a purpose and be useful for passengers in the immediate and long-term.
 
lenaitch said:
The current tenants are a vet clinic (in what I think was the old 'freight shed'), and and a taxi service. There used to be a restaurant but I don't think it is there anymore.

Even if the buses used it, a station would have to be open from about 0500 to 0200 for ten events pre day with no other business or things to do.

Cochrane station serves two trains and is tied into the hotel and yard operations. Englehart is the centre of their rail operations. ONR lists its North Bay station as 24 hours. If that's true, no clue what the staff does all day.

Wanting a station with an agent, ticket counter and all the rest is a nostalgic throwback.
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I agree. What people tend to forget is that it is easy to get capital funding to build infrastructure, but it is much harder to keep ongoing funding for operational expenses. If this is going to be a success, those operational expenses need to be minimized.

The only way reusing a portion of the station could be viable would be if operated as a shelter with a ticket machine instead of ticket counter. Even then, the town would need to see value in letting ONR lease the space for a similar cost to operating the shelter. The only way this would happen is if the local chamber of commerce saw value in providing a welcoming experience to visitors and marketed it accordingly (posting tourist information in the waiting area). I suspect the town would rather rent out the space to someone willing to pay more though. The town would likely feel some entitlement that the province should be paying more to the community to use the station rather than see the benefits the station provides to the community and paying for it accordingly.
 
lenaitch said:
It seems the ball would be in the town's court (it owns the building), and it sounds like they aren't too interested in playing. If the town was willing to operate and staff a station facility, the proponents might have something. Otherwise the agreement for the kiosk is between ONR and CN (assuming CN still owns the plot where it will sit).

Although the proposed Gravenhurst stop times aren't bad (0840 and 2045), even if the buses used it, it makes little economic sense to pay to operate a station building.
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It makes little economic sense to pay to operate a station building just as a station building (even when you include the 8 bus departures per day), but it can make sense if the building has additional public functions.

See for example the historical station building in Temagami that the town pays to operate even though there is currently no service at all - they use it as a vistor information centre. Or the town of Wolfville NS that uses their old station as a library. Those public buildings already have indoor waiting areas, washrooms and staff, so the net cost of also asking the staff to sell train/bus tickets and give train/bus information is minimal.
 
lenaitch said:
The current tenants are a vet clinic (in what I think was the old 'freight shed'), and and a taxi service. There used to be a restaurant but I don't think it is there anymore.

Even if the buses used it, a station would have to be open from about 0500 to 0200 for ten events pre day with no other business or things to do.

Cochrane station serves two trains and is tied into the hotel and yard operations. Englehart is the centre of their rail operations. ONR lists its North Bay station as 24 hours. If that's true, no clue what the staff does all day.

Wanting a station with an agent, ticket counter and all the rest is a nostalgic throwback.
Click to expand...

Instead of building a shelter, why not have it unattended, but have the waiting area within part of that station that already is there?
 
micheal_can said:
Instead of building a shelter, why not have it unattended, but have the waiting area within part of that station that already is there?
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My guess is cost. The town (who owns the building) would rather rent the space to a tenant who will pay more than what ONR would like to pay. While the upfront cost of the shelter might be higher, the operating cost is likely much lower.
 
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