Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[micheal_can]

"CTC" may be a bit extravagant, although it is referred to as such in ONR employee timetables. To be more accurate, the diamond between ONR and CN at Dykstra was an interlocking plant controlled by the CN Operator at North Bay, who also had control of some switches, with associated signals in the zone between it and the CN station. The jurisdiction over tracks between these points was split between ONR and CN, with the closest track to the depot being an ONR track (but used at times by CN passenger trains to make their station stops).

Some tracks around North Bay had ABS signals which would have been affected by the interlocking as well.

You are correct that CTC on the Newmarket Sub ended at Gravenhurst, this was cut back to Washago a decade or so ago.

- Paul

Is this why the tracks just south of the station where the 11 and 169 meet has a light?

 

[crs1026]

Is this why the tracks just south of the station where the 11 and 169 meet has a light?

Yes, and you will note that the target is turned away from the tracks and does not have a number plate. So clearly no longer in service.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

Yes, and you will note that the target is turned away from the tracks and does not have a number plate. So clearly no longer in service.

- Paul

View attachment 602151

When the Northlander returns, would be safe to assume they will use it again?

 

[crs1026]

When the Northlander returns, would be safe to assume they will use it again?

All bets are off. That device is worn out and has sat unused and unmaintained for over a decade, perhaps two. It is effectively a museum piece that no one has bothered to retrieve.

It is possible that the budget Ontario has allocated for the Northlander has some money to improve or restore signalling, but that would require completely new infrastructure. We don't know, and I wouldn't predict one way or the other.

- Paul.

 

[micheal_can]

All bets are off. That device is worn out and has sat unused and unmaintained for over a decade, perhaps two. It is effectively a museum piece that no one has bothered to retrieve.

It is possible that the budget Ontario has allocated for the Northlander has some money to improve or restore signalling, but that would require completely new infrastructure. We don't know, and I wouldn't predict one way or the other.

- Paul.

Where is the first active light on this line?

 

[crs1026]

Where is the first active light on this line?

Washago, ie the junction with the Bala Sub is signalled.

- Paul

 

[IRT_BMT_IND]

But the dispatcher can't see where the other trains are. How do you know that the incoming train stopped at the light ahead?

The clearances are generated by computer, the RTC can see all active clearances graphically on a track diagram and the software checks the RTC's work. And yes, if a crew makes a mistake and operates outside their authority, there is no immediate way for the RTC to know.

When the Northlander returns, would be safe to assume they will use it again?

Very unlikely, likely the searchlight mechanism within the signal itself as well associated relays and track circuits and such have almost certainty either been removed or are no longer usable.

Where is the first active light on this line?

Probably this one - https://maps.app.goo.gl/tXKjGUMqxdgDGdz29

This is an automatic signal that AFAIK is a distant signal (although this I don't think is the proper term in the CROR rules) to the interlocking signal protecting movements to the Bala sub (which is visible on Google from the Highway 11 bridge at Washago). The B plaque on the opposite side of the signal indicates where the preceding interlocking signal in Washago, governing the opposite direction movement from the Bala to the Newmarket sub, protects to.

 

[roger1818]

CN does not operate north of North Bay and ONR (freight) doesn't operate south of it. Cars are interchanged and respective trains operated by ONR, CN and OVR and built and broken in their adjacent yards.

I have to wonder how much value CN sees in owning and operating on the Newmarket Sub. My guess is the only reason they don't divest of it (to either ONR or OVR) is the lack of an interchange yard in Washago.

 

[crs1026]

I have to wonder how much value CN sees in owning and operating on the Newmarket Sub. My guess is the only reason they don't divest of it (to either ONR or OVR) is the lack of an interchange yard in Washago.

Running or trackage rights to Mac Yard would solve that problem.

I don’t know how ONR is obliged to split its traffic between CN and CP, but the line may contribute enough long haul traffic to be worth the effort.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

I have to wonder how much value CN sees in owning and operating on the Newmarket Sub. My guess is the only reason they don't divest of it (to either ONR or OVR) is the lack of an interchange yard in Washago.

The Washago Yard has been scaled down over time. Stand at the station and you can see just how much has been removed. If CN wanted to sell it off to the government, they could simply put back the old yard and it might be enough to handle what would normally just continue to Mac Yard.

 

[smallspy]

And yes, if a crew makes a mistake and operates outside their authority, there is no immediate way for the RTC to know.

Depending on the system, this is incorrect.

On CN's RTC2 system, it broadcasts a warning to the RTC at that panel if it detects that someone has overrun their authority. It also duplicates that warning on the RTC Chief's screen. The RTC will then attempt to contact that train, as well as any other trains on that territory if they deem necessary.

Dan

 

[lenaitch]

I have to wonder how much value CN sees in owning and operating on the Newmarket Sub. My guess is the only reason they don't divest of it (to either ONR or OVR) is the lack of an interchange yard in Washago.

Why does any for profit company make its decisions? I think if they wanted to divest it and make it attractive to a buyer, the cost of re-laying some of the Washago trackage would be fairly minimal. I obviously don't know the numbers but the trains that come and go to and from North Bay - I believe alternate days - are a decent length and both the ONR and OVR yards are fairly full. As far as I know, both OVR and ONR have daily trains in and out of North Bay. There is only a couple of enroute customers in Huntsville so the end-to-end traffic it carries must pay the bills.

 

[micheal_can]

Why does any for profit company make its decisions? I think if they wanted to divest it and make it attractive to a buyer, the cost of re-laying some of the Washago trackage would be fairly minimal. I obviously don't know the numbers but the trains that come and go to and from North Bay - I believe alternate days - are a decent length and both the ONR and OVR yards are fairly full. As far as I know, both OVR and ONR have daily trains in and out of North Bay. There is only a couple of enroute customers in Huntsville so the end-to-end traffic it carries must pay the bills.

If it were gone, the lost revenue from ONR's customers would be CP's new customers.So, it is not just the stuff along the line, but the stuff on ONR's line that makes the CN Newmarket Sub worth having.

 

[AHK]

CN does not operate north of North Bay and ONR (freight) doesn't operate south of it. Cars are interchanged and respective trains operated by ONR, CN and OVR and built and broken in their adjacent yards.

Returning from North Bay on Monday, September 30, with a quick side visit into South River, we caught a CN freight heading south from North Bay towards Huntsville.

Any clarifications would be appreciated.

Note: Edited to correct - Our stop in South River was on Monday, on the way from North Bay to Huntsville, not as originally indicated as being from when we were returning from Huntsville to To Toronto on Tuesday. The fall colours on the stretch from North Bay to Huntsville were quite spectacular.

 

[lenaitch]

Running or trackage rights to Mac Yard would solve that problem.

On reflection, I agree. I'm not sure there would be enough property length at Washago for a suitable exchange track. Besides, why would they spend money on something they want to divest.

South River, we caught a CN freight heading south towards North Bay

That train is indeed facing south . . . towards Huntsville. North Bay is north of South River.

emergency contact information at the level crossing indicated CN's information, not ONR

Indeed. I'm not sure that was ever in question.

The RAC Atlas shows this as stretch as ONR

No it doesn't. Besides, I don't think their cartography is absolutely correct. It shows all the yard trackage in North Bay, including around the ONR shops, as belonging to OVR, which is incorrect.