Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[micheal_can]

As far as I know they do not. How do they "keep it moving" when it has to move from H|CR to either a s/b CP or CN they to an e/b CP or CN?

I get what you mean. I am just thinking of the challenges of moving nuclear material securely.

And it may come to that. One of the ways the government can keep the promise and save some bucks is, instead of invest in new trainsets is to use existing power, EPUs and refurbished cars.

That is my thinking. They are already cutting service from 6 days a week to 4, Having that setup, if it can meet the requirement, it might be done.

Because all the folks who live in these parts see trains as a symbol of commitment. They don't actually use the service or legitimately care about provisioning proper public transport. This is the mindset of people who think one train a day beats 5 buses per day.

Almost every provincial government has been trying to get all of the services that the ONTC once had to no longer be publicly owned and operated. This includes, ships, planes, internet, buses and trains. By returning the Northlander, it shows the province will stop divesting the ONTC. A lot of money flows down those tracks. People up there just want to see some of it flow back.

All the time, we see nostalgia for trains getting in the way of proper transport. It is why I oppose the restoration of the Northlander. We don't need a train, we need transport. A train can fill that role, but outside of the larger markets, the significant costs and inefficiencies of train service actually get in the way of access to transport.

This is the same for Huron Central and OBRY. There are much better ways to achieve adequate transport than to support costly marginal rail lines that even at the most optimistic case will provide poor service.

You know when the 401 gets shut down, you have an alternative that is a reasonable distance? Not the same for north of the French/ Mattawa rivers. You want proof? Get for Nairn Centre to Espanola without crossing the bridge on highway 17. If you figure it out, it will be an 8 hour drive, and a long gravel road. That is for a drive that normally takes 15 minutes. The shutdown of the new Nipigon River Bridge really highlighted that. The only alternative was through the USA, and well over 12 hours. Your response is typical southern privileged attitude where you see roads all over the place and think that is the way it is everywhere else.

 

[crs1026]

Almost every provincial government has been trying to get all of the services that the ONTC once had to no longer be publicly owned and operated. This includes, ships, planes, internet, buses and trains. By returning the Northlander, it shows the province will stop divesting the ONTC. A lot of money flows down those tracks. People up there just want to see some of it flow back.

Be careful what you wish for. The old ONTC was an unaccountable entity, the kind that makes people mutter about civil servants and cushy deals at the public trough. Its rail operation was never productive, and its inability to fund its pension plan commitments was an economic disaster.

However, I will admit that blindly passing things into the private sector leads to a different kind of excess, one that degrades assets and leads to shoestring operating practices. Something in the middle is probably OK.

I’m pretty much a snowflake, but even I cringe at the prospect at rekindling that kind of public agency. But I would be happy if the province saw itself as custodian of the northern Ontario rail network, and took some steps to frame the assets as a network and conserve them, with an emphasis on state of good repair, life cycle investment, and sustainability..

- Paul

 

[APTA-2048]

All the time, we see nostalgia for trains getting in the way of proper transport. It is why I oppose the restoration of the Northlander. We don't need a train, we need transport. A train can fill that role, but outside of the larger markets, the significant costs and inefficiencies of train service actually get in the way of access to transport.

This is the same for Huron Central and OBRY. There are much better ways to achieve adequate transport than to support costly marginal rail lines that even at the most optimistic case will provide poor service.

There’s probably some of that at play, but I think other people view it as a matter of comfort. On the train one can spread out a bit, get up and walk, or grab a snack and coffee.

 

[micheal_can]

Be careful what you wish for. The old ONTC was an unaccountable entity, the kind that makes people mutter about civil servants and cushy deals at the public trough. Its rail operation was never productive, and its inability to fund its pension plan commitments was an economic disaster.

However, I will admit that blindly passing things into the private sector leads to a different kind of excess, one that degrades assets and leads to shoestring operating practices. Something in the middle is probably OK.

I’m pretty much a snowflake, but even I cringe at the prospect at rekindling that kind of public agency. But I would be happy if the province saw itself as custodian of the northern Ontario rail network, and took some steps to frame the assets as a network and conserve them, with an emphasis on state of good repair, life cycle investment, and sustainability..

- Paul

It was never unaccountable. It was in the wrong department. Moving it to the MTO was the smartest decision to ensure it's future is good.

There’s probably some of that at play, but I think other people view it as a matter of comfort. On the train one can spread out a bit, get up and walk, or grab a snack and coffee.

Picture this, your 80 year old mother/grandmother needs to see a specialist in Toronto. She lives in Timmins. She has the money to pay for travel. Which method would most likely be the most comfortable?

 

[Catenary]

To the first part - no clue. If I recall, when GO operated single levels, some were cab-cars. I don't know if any in ONR's fleet were originally and what it would take to convert them back to current standards.

As far as re-positioning, what "them"? The locomotive? That entails two locos so one wouldn't run 'long hood forward'. Two wouldn't be needed from a power requirement. Again, the business case at this point speaks to "a locomotive and a cab car".

As you say, the business case calls for a locomotive and a cab car. We've seen ONTC recently purchase some F40PH based NPCUs similar to what Amtrak uses. There would be lots of space in a unit like this to install a HEP generator, eliminating the need for a separate power car while allowing them the flexibility of drawing from their existing fleet of freight locomotives. This theory aligns with the proposed business case.

 

[lenaitch]

It was never unaccountable. It was in the wrong department. Moving it to the MTO was the smartest decision to ensure it's future is good.

[/QUOTE]

He's not wrong. There were many years until fairly recently when senior management was a collection of political hacks for management and bargaining units who, like many others in public service, operated on the premise that the government never goes out of business and no one ever gets fired. If nothing else, the 'divestment adventure' gave everybody a 'come to Jesus' moment when many of them really did see the potential of a rather dark personal future.

I'm not saying it is all sweetness and light, but I think they've got a better and more knowledgeable management team and a somewhat more collaborative worker base.

I don't know enough whether being under the MTO is a ground breaking improvement, beyond the fact that it is consistent with the Ministry's core mandate. The more an agency is handled like a political plaything and home for favoured appointees, the worse it will perform. Given a proper legislative foundation and governance plus stable funding, it could be under Colleges and Universities for all I care.

 

[crs1026]

Picture this, your 80 year old mother/grandmother needs to see a specialist in Toronto. She lives in Timmins. She has the money to pay for travel. Which method would most likely be the most comfortable?

I wouldn’t dramatise - either an overnight train or an overnight bus ride would be unpleasant for an elderly person, particularly anyone unwell or mobility encumbered. The fortunate would find a driver, or fly with someone accompanying.

There’s a time and distance reality for all modes if one needs to be in Toronto for a morning appointment.

Personally, if I were in that predicament, I would drive the person, leaving very early, aiming for an afternoon appointment, and likely coming prepared for an overnight in a motel somewhere north of Toronto on the way home. Maybe as RER improves, parking in Allandale or at the subway in Vaughan, assuming a downtown hospital or clinic destination.

A bus connection, or a park-and-ride at North Bay, might make a down in the early morning, back at night trip possible and preferable to driving all the way. But only If the train were time competitive with bus or car south of North Bay. In that scenario, the train might be seen as a bit of traveller’s respite and the connecting bus ride would be of more tolerable duration.

I just can’t get my head around an overnight train being the huge win that makes folks in the north feel they arenow well connected to the rest of the province. Maybe it would be symbollic - but would it that well used ? I’m just not convinced.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

I wouldn’t dramatise - either an overnight train or an overnight bus ride would be pleasant for an elderly person, particularly anyone unwell or mobility encumbered. The fortunate would find a driver, or fly with someone accompanying.

There’s a time and distance reality for all modes if one needs to be in Toronto for a morning appointment.

Personally, if I were in that predicament, I would drive the person, leaving very early, aiming for an afternoon appointment, and likely coming prepared for an overnight in a motel somewhere north of Toronto on the way home. Maybe as RER improves, parking in Allandale or at the subway in Vaughan, assuming a downtown hospital or clinic destination.

A bus connection, or a park-and-ride at North Bay, might make a down in the early morning, back at night trip possible and preferable to driving all the way. But only If the train were time competitive with bus or car south of North Bay. In that scenario, the train might be seen as a bit of traveller’s respite and the connecting bus ride would be of more tolerable duration.

I just can’t get my head around an overnight train being the huge win that makes folks in the north feel they arenow well connected to the rest of the province. Maybe it would be symbollic - but would it that well used ? I’m just not convinced.

- Paul

I cannot understand why people in the GTA will pay $1 million for a postage stamp sized lot with a house almost touching their neighbours. Just because I don't get it, doesn't mean I don't think they should not do it.

 

[lenaitch]

As you say, the business case calls for a locomotive and a cab car. We've seen ONTC recently purchase some F40PH based NPCUs similar to what Amtrak uses. There would be lots of space in a unit like this to install a HEP generator, eliminating the need for a separate power car while allowing them the flexibility of drawing from their existing fleet of freight locomotives. This theory aligns with the proposed business case.

Other sites are calling them APCUs (Auxiliary Power Control Car? HEP generators, controls, no prime mover?). I assumed they were intended to replace the aging ex-GO based APUs. To me a cab car is a passenger car with controls.

 

[micheal_can]

Other sites are calling them APCUs (Auxiliary Power Control Car? HEP generators, controls, no prime mover?). I assumed they were intended to replace the aging ex-GO based APUs. To me a cab car is a passenger car with controls.

These are cabbage cars.

 

[christine]

I wouldn’t dramatise - either an overnight train or an overnight bus ride would be pleasant for an elderly person, particularly anyone unwell or mobility encumbered. The fortunate would find a driver, or fly with someone accompanying.

There’s a time and distance reality for all modes if one needs to be in Toronto for a morning appointment.

Personally, if I were in that predicament, I would drive the person, leaving very early, aiming for an afternoon appointment, and likely coming prepared for an overnight in a motel somewhere north of Toronto on the way home. Maybe as RER improves, parking in Allandale or at the subway in Vaughan, assuming a downtown hospital or clinic destination.

Finding a driver can be a pain because that person would be inconvenienced. And even if they did find someone, some people are not okay with long road trips or get car sick. And when overnight stays at motels are introduced this creates a time and fiscal penalty making the train that much more competitive (assuming a revised schedule).

A bus connection, or a park-and-ride at North Bay, might make a down in the early morning, back at night trip possible and preferable to driving all the way. But only If the train were time competitive with bus or car south of North Bay. In that scenario, the train might be seen as a bit of traveller’s respite and the connecting bus ride would be of more tolerable duration.

I just can’t get my head around an overnight train being the huge win that makes folks in the north feel they arenow well connected to the rest of the province. Maybe it would be symbollic - but would it that well used ? I’m just not convinced.

- Paul

Regarding the schedules, I have seen people talk about night service and from what I understand the respondents to the survey said that was more accommodating. In the 1990s (when ridership was higher than in 2011/2012) the Northlander schedule was afternoon arrival in Toronto and evening departure, still requiring a one night stay but thats still better than a two night stay with the 2000s-era schedule though I'm not entirely convinced that the schedule was the reason why ridership was higher back then.

These are cabbage cars.

@lenaitch is correct - supposedly they are primarily to replace for the older APU units although as has been mentioned on this thread, their not spectacularly reliable.

 

[Admiral Beez]

These are cabbage cars.

Interesting, I wasn’t familiar with that term.

Control car - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[micheal_can]

Interesting, I wasn’t familiar with that term.

Control car - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Neither was I till one of my many late night dive into Wikipedia.

 

[micheal_can]

Genesee & Wyoming, governments close to signing deal to preserve northeast rail freight service

Aid package would avert Montreal railroader from withdrawing at end of June

www.northernontariobusiness.com

<The deal, when signed, will consist of $33 million in Huron Central Railway line infrastructure repair money, the federal and provincial governments and Genesee & Wyoming Canada (GWCI)/ HCRY, each picking up a third of that cost, Fratesi said.
"The improvements would be done over a period of seven years. That is the one (proposal) that seemed to get traction because it did not require large amounts of money from any one party all at once,” Fratesi said.>

Just enough time for the Northlander to be sorted out before a potential expansion.

 

[TRONto]

All the time, we see nostalgia for trains getting in the way of proper transport. It is why I oppose the restoration of the Northlander. We don't need a train, we need transport. A train can fill that role, but outside of the larger markets, the significant costs and inefficiencies of train service actually get in the way of access to transport.

This is the same for Huron Central and OBRY. There are much better ways to achieve adequate transport than to support costly marginal rail lines that even at the most optimistic case will provide poor service.

Did you see the numbers? I saw someone post the burying the Eglinton West LRT vs putting it at grade would pay for 176 years of service. The subsidy is very small in the scheme of things.