Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[steveintoronto]

Piggyback on the VIA procurement and buy a dozen more cars (two four car trainsets, plus spares) that have life expectancy.

That makes perfect sense if they're really serious about this...which I get the impression that they're not.

But here's an idea, since I see it as inevitable the Cons are going to do things like this P3, if not completely privately: Approach investors, either through the Ont Investor agency (the name eludes me at this instant) or the Cdn Infrastructure Bank to finance exactly what you propose. The sell-on value of the trainsets if the NL concept fails (yet again) will be very high, or flip that over: Get a rolling-stock leasing company (perhaps even Siemens themselves might be interested, Siemens have a massive cash holding) to lease trainsets to ON with an option to buy to test the market for this. Being identical to what VIA orders means that there's a ready, willing and able market for them at VIA if the Northlander (or whatever they call it) fails again.

It would be an excellent way to call the Cons on their own game.
List of rolling-stock leasing companies - Wikipedia

Addendum: Just Googling to find what there is of substance on this. Lots of vapour, and ridiculous amounts of bafflegab and hypocrisy:

Local businesses turn to minister to cut red tape to stimulate job creation

'There’s a lot of money in the south, and you’re just not sharing in the prosperity in the north. And that’s why we’re having these round tables' Jim Wilson, Minister of Economic Development, Small Business and Trade

Bay Today
Oct 11, 2018 4:25 PM by: Linda Holmes

[...]
Fedeli was asked for an update on the Northlander train. He said there is nothing to share at this time, but it remains a “very active file.”

“One of the comments in there (business round table) was when are we going to see more activity transferring Ontario Northland from MNDM (Ministry of Northern Development and Mines) over to the Ministry of Transportation where it used to be, because it is more of a transportation company now than anything else.”
[...]

https://www.baytoday.ca/local-news/...ut-red-tape-to-stimulate-job-creation-1081361

Almost the entire article was complete hypocrisy on the part of the Cons...and make no mistake, I believe in Market Forces...but that's a political discussion.

But here's an idea: "Subways For the People My Friends!" Build a subway to replace the Northlander. Ridiculous? You betcha, just as ridiculous as what the Cons are now proposing and not able to deliver.

 

[smallspy]

Gormick’s “odds and ends” approach is badly advised, IMHO. The press accounts allude to equipment from a repository in the US. If it’s the source I am thinking of , ie Iowa Pacific, it’s very old stuff that may not be winterised and may have ongoing maintenance needs.

- Paul

Which makes me wonder even more who exactly he is working for. When he was consulting for VIA several years ago, he pushed them to buy this same equipment. For the record, these are the Budd-built ex-Santa Fe high-level cars built in the late 1950s and early 1960s. They are supposedly in good shape, but I've also never heard of an outside consultant inspecting them, either.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[steveintoronto]

Well if there's 'no money' for satellite university/college campuses, how can there be any for the Northlander reborn?

 

[steveintoronto]

Vanthof demands action on Northlander

Joe O'Grady
More from Joe O'Grady
Published on: October 22, 2018 | Last Updated: October 22, 2018 7:30 PM EDT

The Ontario NDP is keeping its foot on the gas when it comes to insisting the Ford Conservatives follow through on their commitment to return passenger rail service to Northern Ontario.

In question period on Monday, NDP Deputy Leader and Timiskaming-Cochrane MPP John Vanthof said that families in this region are about to go through another winter but no closer to seeing the Northlander passenger train return.

“Winter is coming. We’ve got one road, Highway 11, which will inevitably be closed at numerous times and northerners will be cut off once again,” said Vanthof. “We used to have the option of the Northlander passenger train. It was a vital link for the north but for years, families have been forced to go without – this wouldn’t happen anywhere else in the province and it shouldn’t be happening here.

“When is the Ford government going to bring back passenger rail service to northeastern Ontario?” asked Vanthof.

Vanthof said New Democrats have called for the return of the Northlander passenger rail service ever since the Liberals cancelled in 2012. The local MPP said that despite “lip service” paid to northeastern families during the campaign, PremierDoug Ford has yet to deliver any action to get the Northlander rolling again in northeastern Ontario.

“Will this government finally do the right thing, work with the NDP and northern families, and bring back passenger rail service to northeastern Ontario?” asked Vanthof.

Nipissing MPP and Ontario Finance Minister Vic Fedele says the province is committed to restoring the Northlander as one of the PC’s election promises, but has not specified when the government will take action.

https://www.northernnews.ca/news/local-news/vanthof-demands-action-on-northlander

Ford’s Northlander train waffling leaves families in the cold: Vanthof
Families forced to go without vital link not tolerable, adds Vanthof
Oct 23, 2018 9:00 AM by: TimminsToday Staff

QUEEN’S PARK - In question period on Monday, NDP Deputy Leader and Timiskaming—Cochrane MPP John Vanthof said that northeastern families are about to go through another winter but no closer to seeing the Northlander passenger train return.

“Winter is coming. We’ve got one road, Highway 11, which will inevitably be closed at numerous times and northerners will be cut off once again,” said Vanthof. “We used to have the option of the Northlander passenger train. It was a vital link for the north but for years, families have been forced to go without – this wouldn’t happen anywhere else in the province and it shouldn’t be happening here.


“When is the Ford government going to bring back passenger rail service to northeastern Ontario?” asked Vanthof.

New Democrats have called for the return of the Northlander passenger rail service ever since the Liberals cancelled this service in 2012. Vanthof said that despite lip service paid to northeastern families during the campaign, Doug Ford has yet to deliver any action to get the Northlander rolling again in northeastern Ontario.

“Will this government finally do the right thing, work with the NDP and northern families, and bring back passenger rail service to northeastern Ontario?” asked Vanthof.

https://www.timminstoday.com/local-...g-leaves-families-in-the-cold-vanthof-1094277

In all fairness, I don't see how the Northlander can make a business case to do this, but that's irrelevant to the Cons promising to back this.

Or is that the take-away? The Cons are cons?

Edit to Add:

NORTH BAY — It was standing room only at North Bay’s Grande Event Centre on May 3 when Ontario PC leader Doug Ford made a campaign stop in the Nipissing Riding held by PC Finance Critic Vic Fedeli.

Speaking to a cheering crowd of about 250 people at a breakfast gathering Ford said “We’re going to bring back the Northlander ... and we’re going to make it affordable for people to get on the trains and travel for medical and recreational reasons.”

He credited Fedeli for the passenger train announcement saying the MPP works “a 100 per cent, for not only his constituents in Nipissing, but to ensure issues across northern Ontario are front and centre.”

Ford said that as he’s travelled through northern Ontario he has had people tell him they feel “stranded” now that there is no longer passenger train service to southern Ontario, “and that’s why bringing back the Northlander is important,” he said.

Fedeli said the PC budget has allocated $30 million for the purchase of new rail cars and $15 million in an annual subsidy.

When asked if the new passenger train would be sustainable Fedeli said “of course it will. It’s important that we have rail transportation back in the north. Just because the Liberals pulled it and the NDP supported them in that budget, doesn’t mean (passenger rail) isn’t the right thing to do.”

Ford, who called Fedeli his “right hand man” also gave the Nipissing MPP credit for helping to create the PC party’s Plan for Northern Ontario that was released the day before the North Bay stop.

In addition to bringing back the Northlander, that plan includes ensuring hunting and fishing revenues go toward their stated purpose of conservation; cutting the aviation fuel tax for the north and resource revenue sharing from mining, aggregates and forestry.

“Rather than having all the tax money going down to the big bubble in Queen's Park we’re taking a different approach. This is your money,” Ford told the Nipissing crowd, “it’s not Queen’s Park’s money. It was made in the north and it’s going to stay in the north.”

The portion of tax revenues remaining in local communities, which Ford estimates will be between $20 and 30 million, will come without any provincial restrictions on its use.

“If you want to put it toward infrastructure, put it toward infrastructure. If you want to build a community centre, build a community centre,” said Ford. “The money is going to stay wherever it comes from. It’s about giving the freedom to the people in those communities to spend the money the way they want.”
[...]

https://www.northbaynipissing.com/n...promises-new-northlander-to-nipissing-voters/

Unreal...

 

[dowlingm]

Something something Liberals something financial sacrifices something something

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

“Rather than having all the tax money going down to the big bubble in Queen's Park we’re taking a different approach. This is your money,” Ford told the Nipissing crowd, “it’s not Queen’s Park’s money. It was made in the north and it’s going to stay in the north.”

Hmm, I wonder if he will say the same for money made in Toronto...

AoD

 

[steveintoronto]

Hmm, I wonder if he will say the same for money made in Toronto...

AoD

There's reams of totally contradictory statements been made by the Ford Confabulation. So overwhelmingly so, that I question anyone who takes them at their word...

How many times to you need to be Conned? Make no mistake, this is not stating that the alternatives were any better, just that the Cons are worse. (Which is a contradiction in claims in itself if you follow the logic).

I dumped this from my digging on the subject earlier, but found it again to make the point:

Letter – Time to Keep the Promise for Passenger Rail
Post Views: 157
Brenda,

It has been 6 months since our PC Leader (now Premier) Doug Ford promised to bring back full passenger rail service to the North. At the time, this was welcome news should they be elected.

Now they have been elected and Northerners are anxious to see this promise happen.

For the past 5 years, NEORN has been busy encouraging Northern Ontario municipal councils, First Nation councils, and organizations, the Canadian Federation of Students, economic development organizations as well as several federal and provincial politicians to pass resolutions of support for the return of passenger rail to northern Ontario. Last week NEORN provided to Premier Ford and Northern Ontario MPPs copies of these resolutions from virtually every community on the Toronto-Cochrane rail line from Washago north as well as the Algoma Central Rail line from the Sault to Hearst.

As NEORN spokespeople state in their recent Northern Policy Institute commentary, the NEORN LOOP is a “modern, innovative, comprehensive and integrated passenger rail service (that) could radically enhance Northern Ontario’s regional intercommunity connectivity and do so using existing rail infrastructure” along with bus feeder lines to provide service to Northern Ontario and connect it with southern Ontario and the rest of Canada.

In the past year, another group calling itself ‘All Aboard Northern Ontario’ has developed a proposal entitled ‘NortheastLynx’, a plan to revive the Northlander route. NEORN welcomes this initiative and any others that may come forth to get this train service back on the rails.

To the Provincial government, the ball is in your court. Time to act and make good on your promise of restoring rail passenger services in the North.

SOURCE – Northeastern Ontario Rail Network (NEORN)

Letter – Time to Keep the Promise for Passenger Rail – Wawa-news.com

 

[Allandale25]

Latest from the advocacy group trying to bring back rail service:

The Lynx is getting ready to prowl our Northern Rails! But …

Our NortheastLynx plan for the restoration of the Ontario Northland Railway’s passenger trains from Cochrane to Temagami, North Bay and Toronto is nearing completion. Our work to date has already been shared with numerous provincial, municipal, First Nations and railway leaders, who like the looks and lines of our stealthy kitty and eagerly await its arrival.

However, our NortheastLynx plan has been more complex than anticipated. Its development has required considerably more experienced, professional input than originally expected to make it purr-fect. We are very close, but we’re not quite there yet.

To get our Lynx to its destination, we are requesting assistance from all those Northeastern Ontarians who need and will make good use of the trendsettingly affordable rail passenger and connecting Lynx Cub bus services we are outlining in detail in the NortheastLynx plan. Our Lynx will not only generate substantial benefits right across its full route, it will also be applicable to other rail lines that now inadequately serve Ontarians in other parts of this great province.

If our Lynx is to be properly fed and groomed to win the approval we envision for it, then please help support it by donating to All Aboard Northern Ontario’s NortheastLynx campaign today.

DONATE HERE : http://www.gofundme.com/all-aboard-northern-ontario

 

[rbt]

Hmm, I wonder if he will say the same for money made in Toronto...

It wouldn't be true if he said that.

The North is so much of a have-not, that any new penny of tax revenue will indeed go back to the North just as it has for the last several decades. It does mean fewer dollars from Southern Ontario will be required to prop-up quality of life; so in away the GTA wins too; we can demand and receive another tiny tax reduction.

I really doubt total spending in the North will increase but this revenue stream will indeed stay in the region.

 

[Admiral Beez]

... run the train from Toronto to Moosonee, advertised it as a "Take a train to the Ocean !!" ... and watch the revenue soar

I originally posted this here... https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/via-rail.21060/page-303#post-1391641

The new Churchill line is IIRC the first indigenous-owned railway west of Quebec. Maybe Ontario and Ottawa should offer the same to Ontario's communities to re-start the Northlander rail service? Fat chance of that with DoFo though - perhaps a limited re-start to Barrie GO Station, so that those heading south to Toronto can grab the GoTrain?

 

[ShonTron]

I originally posted this here... https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/via-rail.21060/page-303#post-1391641

The new Churchill line is IIRC the first indigenous-owned railway west of Quebec. Maybe Ontario and Ottawa should offer the same to Ontario's communities to re-start the Northlander rail service? Fat chance of that with DoFo though - perhaps a limited re-start to Barrie GO Station, so that those heading south to Toronto can grab the GoTrain?

The Northlander can't go via Barrie, as the Newmarket Sub north of Allandale was abandoned and torn up. CN didn't want to maintain the swing bridge near Orillia and it was cheaper to maintain only one northern line. Through Barrie, the ROW is mostly gone as that city has been redoing its waterfront.

Once GO improves service to Barrie, with regular hourly train service, it might make sense for Northland to terminate its buses there, especially if it can guarantee a consistently faster ride than the bus continuing south on Highway 400 (it can't yet offer a faster trip except in rush hour and cottage country traffic conditions).

 

[Allandale25]

I originally posted this here... https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/via-rail.21060/page-303#post-1391641

The new Churchill line is IIRC the first indigenous-owned railway west of Quebec. Maybe Ontario and Ottawa should offer the same to Ontario's communities to re-start the Northlander rail service? Fat chance of that with DoFo though - perhaps a limited re-start to Barrie GO Station, so that those heading south to Toronto can grab the GoTrain?

Is the KRC indigenous-owned? Map here: https://www.railcan.ca/rac-initiatives/canadian-rail-atlas/

 

[Admiral Beez]

Is the KRC indigenous-owned? Map here: https://www.railcan.ca/rac-initiatives/canadian-rail-atlas/

Whoops, I had the KRC as a Quebec set, not Manitoban.

There are some other interesting indigenous-involved rail projects in the works, such as http://www.a2arail.com/

 

[Allandale25]

CBC radio did a piece here on restoring rail service.

 

[steveintoronto]

^

Keewatin Railway. The Keewatin Railway Company is a First Nations-owned shortline railroad that operates in Northern Manitoba, between The Pas, and Pukatawagan.

Keewatin Railway - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keewatin_Railway