Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[Garuda]

Let Ontario Northland take over VIA Rail's Sudbury to White River service

It's time to put the essential remote service into the hands of a competent agency that understands the region

open.substack.com

That’s would be interesting.

I’d rather Ontario Northland operate a Sudbury-North Bay - Toronto service that operates on the opposite days the Northlander will. The largest population centre in northern Ontario should have a semi daily connection to Toronto. The Canadian doesn’t count.

 

[micheal_can]

That’s would be interesting.

I’d rather Ontario Northland operate a Sudbury-North Bay - Toronto service that operates on the opposite days the Northlander will. The largest population centre in northern Ontario should have a semi daily connection to Toronto. The Canadian doesn’t count.

If you are wanting that, what about terminating it at SSM?

 

[lenaitch]

It is a trend that should stop. It has been a trend that was started to make things cheaper for the government without realizing that it goes against the right to move around the country.

I'm afraid you can't lay this at the feet of government, Ontario's or otherwise. Urbanization goes back to the industrial revolution in Great Britain, when agriculture became less labour intensive and manufacturing started taking advantage of new sources of power and methods. Workers began migrating to the cities (mostly coastal in UK's case) to work in manufacturing. Even today, professions such as farming and mining are benefiting from technology which results in fewer bodies needed to perform the same function.

Every citizen should be able to get to the MRI safely. Whether it be 10 km away, or 1000 km away.

And the only way that can be done is via rail or air?

 

[micheal_can]

I'm afraid you can't lay this at the feet of government, Ontario's or otherwise. Urbanization goes back to the industrial revolution in Great Britain, when agriculture became less labour intensive and manufacturing started taking advantage of new sources of power and methods. Workers began migrating to the cities (mostly coastal in UK's case) to work in manufacturing. Even today, professions such as farming and mining are benefiting from technology which results in fewer bodies needed to perform the same function.

I can if they perpetuate it. If they decided to build up the smaller cities and rural ares, especially with a low cost of land and a housing crisis.

And the only way that can be done is via rail or air?

Net time your elderly family member has a medical condition that makes their mobility difficult, have them take the bus to their next medical appointment. Have them take it for 4-8 hours to simulate a Timmins to Toronto trek.

 

[crs1026]

=^While I don't dispute the need - if the business case for the Northlander is too dependent on the sick and the elderly, I'm not sure that it is a viable proposition.

I would rather see money invested in hospital facilities in Timmins, Sudbury, and North Bay than in Northlander trainsets. And I would rather pay the operating costs for clinics in the North than create jobs on railway trains hauling people all the way to Toronto for these services. The problem may be underfunding of health care up that way, rather than underfunding of rail transportation. Maybe a bus ride to a better clinic in North Bay is a better use of the money.

There will always be certain specialized medical and similar services that have to be centralized, and those who live at a distance will have an added burden to reach them. Fort McMurray to Calgary or Edmonton is a valid comparator. Similarly, Kamloops/Kelowna/Penticton to Vancouver.

A certain proportion of potential riders will be coming to the GTA for specialised medical treatment, but if the service doesn't attract students, healthy seniors visiting family, tourists, and even business travellers, it isn't going to earn its keep. So while I am sensitive to the burdens of those in the North needing health care, I wouldn't overplay my hand on this one. I bet Ornge would have interesting ideas on other ways to spend the $150M we are spending on new trains.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

=^While I don't dispute the need - if the business case for the Northlander is too dependent on the sick and the elderly, I'm not sure that it is a viable proposition.

I would rather see money invested in hospital facilities in Timmins, Sudbury, and North Bay than in Northlander trainsets. And I would rather pay the operating costs for clinics in the North than create jobs on railway trains hauling people all the way to Toronto for these services. The problem may be underfunding of health care up that way, rather than underfunding of rail transportation. Maybe a bus ride to a better clinic in North Bay is a better use of the money.

There will always be certain specialized medical and similar services that have to be centralized, and those who live at a distance will have an added burden to reach them. Fort McMurray to Calgary or Edmonton is a valid comparator. Similarly, Kamloops/Kelowna/Penticton to Vancouver.

A certain proportion of potential riders will be coming to the GTA for specialised medical treatment, but if the service doesn't attract students, healthy seniors visiting family, tourists, and even business travellers, it isn't going to earn its keep. So while I am sensitive to the burdens of those in the North needing health care, I wouldn't overplay my hand on this one. I bet Ornge would have interesting ideas on other ways to spend the $150M we are spending on new trains.

- Paul

There are many types of riders who will use this service. The elderly whom are going for medical appointments are one of the many demographics. If it is timed right ant priced right, it should be a success for most people. Using the elderly going formedical appointments is just one really good example of where a bus is not that good for them. I am looking forward to driving to North Bay, parking my car there and taking the train to Toronto and not having to deal with the traffic or parking.

 

[lenaitch]

I can if they perpetuate it. If they decided to build up the smaller cities and rural ares, especially with a low cost of land and a housing crisis.

Urbanization is a social phenomena, unless you are into the 'one world government' and other conspiracy theories. In a (small L) liberal democracy, companies, industries and people locate where they will (in terms of people, it's Constitutionally protected). Some industries by their nature will tend to congregate near similar or allied types; we see this in the IT and knowledge fields as well as in the traditional resource and extraction industries. In terms of people, how often is it mentioned in threads here that folks have no intention of leaving the GTA (or move north of Bloor for that matter). For sure, part of it is employment,; but I suggest it is also cultural.

Canada is no longer primarily a resource-based economy, so there is less compelling need for work and workers to be in the rural or northern areas.

GM or Cisco aren't likely going to locate in Parry Sound or Hornpayne on their own. I suggest governments would have to subsidize that to happen. Beyond the public policy debate, that also has issues regarding international trade agreements.

Net time your elderly family member has a medical condition that makes their mobility difficult, have them take the bus to their next medical appointment. Have them take it for 4-8 hours to simulate a Timmins to Toronto trek.

Depending on which definition you use, I don't have to pick on a family member; I'm of that demographic. Like Paul, I would wonder how many people have to travel to the GTA for medical reasons, For sure, they are likely medically fragile, but with regional health centres and regional cancer centres in several large northern cities, I'm not sure the numbers are significant. I'm not defending Ontario health care, but allowances are available for medically necessary tavel. Maybe they need to be better. Maybe they need to be good enough to spawn private patient transfer services (land and air ambulance won't transport for appointments or non-urgent procedures).

In the winter, NorOntair was not a consistently reliable service except between larger airports. Most of their destinations were small VFR strips with little to no navigational aids. I recall several times standing at the airport hearing - but not seeing - the plane fly over, maybe a couple of times, then the sound disappearing into the distance.

Edit to an earlier post: I don't believe NorOntair serviced remote FNTs. I believe I was recalling Austin Airways which had scheduled and charter services.

 

[micheal_can]

Urbanization is a social phenomena, unless you are into the 'one world government' and other conspiracy theories. In a (small L) liberal democracy, companies, industries and people locate where they will (in terms of people, it's Constitutionally protected). Some industries by their nature will tend to congregate near similar or allied types; we see this in the IT and knowledge fields as well as in the traditional resource and extraction industries. In terms of people, how often is it mentioned in threads here that folks have no intention of leaving the GTA (or move north of Bloor for that matter). For sure, part of it is employment,; but I suggest it is also cultural.

Canada is no longer primarily a resource-based economy, so there is less compelling need for work and workers to be in the rural or northern areas.

GM or Cisco aren't likely going to locate in Parry Sound or Hornpayne on their own. I suggest governments would have to subsidize that to happen. Beyond the public policy debate, that also has issues regarding international trade agreements.

Imagine some of of the best places to grow food. Imagine a growing world population. That is such a great spot for another manufacturing plant, right?

Or, let's say there is a place where the raw materials come from. Lets say it has the infrastructure available for manufacturing goods, including cheap land that does not produce food. Wouldn't that be abetter spot to put the subsidy that you are going to put somewhere anyways? For example,the VW EV battery plant, why not locate that beside the mine in which the materials are coming from?

Depending on which definition you use, I don't have to pick on a family member; I'm of that demographic. Like Paul, I would wonder how many people have to travel to the GTA for medical reasons, For sure, they are likely medically fragile, but with regional health centres and regional cancer centres in several large northern cities, I'm not sure the numbers are significant. I'm not defending Ontario health care, but allowances are available for medically necessary tavel. Maybe they need to be better. Maybe they need to be good enough to spawn private patient transfer services (land and air ambulance won't transport for appointments or non-urgent procedures).

In the winter, NorOntair was not a consistently reliable service except between larger airports. Most of their destinations were small VFR strips with little to no navigational aids. I recall several times standing at the airport hearing - but not seeing - the plane fly over, maybe a couple of times, then the sound disappearing into the distance.

Edit to an earlier post: I don't believe NorOntair serviced remote FNTs. I believe I was recalling Austin Airways which had scheduled and charter services.

NorOntair didn't service FN reserves.

Travel is fine if you live in one of the major centres in Northern ONas their hospitals are good enough for most things. But what if you don't? Should you be forced to move? This is but one small group of riders. But,it is one that can clearly be understood.

 

[lenaitch]

Imagine some of of the best places to grow food. Imagine a growing world population. That is such a great spot for another manufacturing plant, right?

Or, let's say there is a place where the raw materials come from. Lets say it has the infrastructure available for manufacturing goods, including cheap land that does not produce food. Wouldn't that be abetter spot to put the subsidy that you are going to put somewhere anyways? For example,the VW EV battery plant, why not locate that beside the mine in which the materials are coming from?

That's a fair point. Industry will want to locate primarily near its inputs or its market, whichever is cheaper. It seems most chose to be proximate to markets but I imagine the type of product plays a large part. Bread can't all be made in Saskatchewan because it is perishable, but frozen fish can be packaged at wharfside. To a certain degree, proximity to transportation and energy corridors also come into play depending on the industry. I honestly don't know how successful a government would be by demanding 'you must build it 'here'.

Using the VW battery plant example, it seems they chose proximity to market, transportation and energy. The proposed job creation in plant and allied industries will certainly challenge any community, particularly a small northern one.

I haven't been following it that closely but I am not aware that the plant, or the agreement to subsidize it, are tied to any domestic mineral production supply. That would be challenge, particularly if it is cheaper offshore. Domestic cobalt mining and refining is in its infancy and I'm not aware of any domestic lithium industry beyond the exploration phase. In terms of lithium alone, if you want the plant to be "beside the mine in which the materials are coming from", it should be going to either Australia or South America.

I understand the issue of greenfield construction. I thought the VW plant was going where the old Ford plant was, but could be wrong.

 

[wopchop]

I understand the issue of greenfield construction. I thought the VW plant was going where the old Ford plant was, but could be wrong.

It is not, no. It is greenfield.

"The site in east St. Thomas is bounded by Highbury Avenue, Ron McNeil Line, Yarmouth Centre Road, and the rail line just north of Talbot Street, Dyke said."

'Huge': St. Thomas lands VW electric battery plant, more than 2,000 jobs

In a milestone investment, automaker Volkswagen will build a massive new electric vehicle battery plant in St. Thomas.

lfpress.com

The old Ford plant was technically not in St. Thomas. It was up closer to the 401. I think it is now an amazon warehouse.

 

[just east of the creek]

Urbanization is a social phenomena, unless you are into the 'one world government' and other conspiracy theories. In a (small L) liberal democracy, companies, industries and people locate where they will (in terms of people, it's Constitutionally protected). Some industries by their nature will tend to congregate near similar or allied types; we see this in the IT and knowledge fields as well as in the traditional resource and extraction industries. In terms of people, how often is it mentioned in threads here that folks have no intention of leaving the GTA (or move north of Bloor for that matter). For sure, part of it is employment,; but I suggest it is also cultural.

Canada is no longer primarily a resource-based economy, so there is less compelling need for work and workers to be in the rural or northern areas.

GM or Cisco aren't likely going to locate in Parry Sound or Hornpayne on their own. I suggest governments would have to subsidize that to happen. Beyond the public policy debate, that also has issues regarding international trade agreements.



Depending on which definition you use, I don't have to pick on a family member; I'm of that demographic. Like Paul, I would wonder how many people have to travel to the GTA for medical reasons, For sure, they are likely medically fragile, but with regional health centres and regional cancer centres in several large northern cities, I'm not sure the numbers are significant. I'm not defending Ontario health care, but allowances are available for medically necessary tavel. Maybe they need to be better. Maybe they need to be good enough to spawn private patient transfer services (land and air ambulance won't transport for appointments or non-urgent procedures).

In the winter, NorOntair was not a consistently reliable service except between larger airports. Most of their destinations were small VFR strips with little to no navigational aids. I recall several times standing at the airport hearing - but not seeing - the plane fly over, maybe a couple of times, then the sound disappearing into the distance.

Edit to an earlier post: I don't believe NorOntair serviced remote FNTs. I believe I was recalling Austin Airways which had scheduled and charter services.

Raw materials (AG, Forestry, Mining, Petroleum) is about 10% of our GDP in 2020. So not a small %.

But I am all for CISCO relocating to Parry Sound! They are always hiring and the commute into town from one of the Thirty Thousand Islands would be awesome!!

 

[lenaitch]

and the commute into town from one of the Thirty Thousand Islands would be awesome

Might be tricky during break-up and freeze-up.

 

[micheal_can]

That's a fair point. Industry will want to locate primarily near its inputs or its market, whichever is cheaper. It seems most chose to be proximate to markets but I imagine the type of product plays a large part. Bread can't all be made in Saskatchewan because it is perishable, but frozen fish can be packaged at wharfside. To a certain degree, proximity to transportation and energy corridors also come into play depending on the industry. I honestly don't know how successful a government would be by demanding 'you must build it 'here'.

Using the VW battery plant example, it seems they chose proximity to market, transportation and energy. The proposed job creation in plant and allied industries will certainly challenge any community, particularly a small northern one.

I haven't been following it that closely but I am not aware that the plant, or the agreement to subsidize it, are tied to any domestic mineral production supply. That would be challenge, particularly if it is cheaper offshore. Domestic cobalt mining and refining is in its infancy and I'm not aware of any domestic lithium industry beyond the exploration phase. In terms of lithium alone, if you want the plant to be "beside the mine in which the materials are coming from", it should be going to either Australia or South America.

I understand the issue of greenfield construction. I thought the VW plant was going where the old Ford plant was, but could be wrong.

The old Ford plant has the new Amazon warehouse.

 

[micheal_can]

Might be tricky during break-up and freeze-up.

Hovercraft.....

 

[lenaitch]

Hovercraft.....

Yes, everybody should have one. They are so easy to operate (not). Of course it would have to be powered by electricity or unicorn tears or something. Or are we talking about a publicly-funding hovercraft transit service?

The company that made a personal/utility sized one in Parry Sound went out of business.