Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[micheal_can]

While I agree there is a grey line between fantasy and reality, the fact that new passenger trains have been ordered from Siemens for the Northlander, it has been pushed from fantasy into reality. Could something happen to scuttle the whole thing? Yes, but I would put the probability that the service will return well above 50% (probably even above 90% at this point). A fantasy isn't anything that doesn't exist, but something that likely won't exist.

Point is,we can talk about what could be done but until the train actually is running, it is still in the realm of fantasy.

 

[Allandale25]

^ True, but every public post by government cabinet ministers and MPPs increases the pressure on them to actually deliver as they continue to set expectations. It would be more worrying if there were fewer posts.

 

[micheal_can]

^ True, but every public post by government cabinet ministers and MPPs increases the pressure on them to actually deliver as they continue to set expectations. It would be more worrying if there were fewer posts.

The Eglinton Subway, not LRT would like to have a word with you.....

 

[Allandale25]

^ I don't get how it's analogous to your view that anything is fantasy until construction starts (or is your goal post the first revenue service run?) run. Eglinton is more than fantasy given the current level of construction completion even with the current legal battle.

 

[MisterF]

guessing this goes here? Highway 11's 2+1 pilot contract has been won be Aecom and is now moving to design phase: https://northernontario.ctvnews.ca/...passing-lane-project-into-high-gear-1.6480306

This is the way to go for highway expansion in most of northern Ontario and other remote areas, IMO. A lot of people have the idea that we should have a fully twinned highway across the north without realizing how enormous of a project that would be to benefit so few people. 2+1 highways are routine in other countries. They have most of the benefit of a twinned highway for a lot less cost.

Once completed, Highway 11 will be the first 2+1 highway pilot project in North America.

What an odd statement from the article. 2+1 highways have existed in North America for a long time. The Sea to Sky Highway in BC for example.

 

[micheal_can]

^ I don't get how it's analogous to your view that anything is fantasy until construction starts (or is your goal post the first revenue service run?) run. Eglinton is more than fantasy given the current level of construction completion even with the current legal battle.

The Eglinton Subway was being built in the 1990s when Mike Harris took over. He cancelled it, and they literally filled the tunnel back in. So, until the train is in revenue service, and I can book a seat, it is a fantasy.

 

[smallspy]

The Eglinton Subway was being built in the 1990s when Mike Harris took over. He cancelled it, and they literally filled the tunnel back in. So, until the train is in revenue service, and I can book a seat, it is a fantasy.

First off, there was no tunnel - they had only dug out the launch pit for the TBMs.

Second off, one of the items on Harris' platform was the cancellation of the Eglinton Subway. So when he got elected, it was no surprise that he followed through with that.

Who is running on a platform of cancelling the relaunch of the Northlander?

Dan

 

[crs1026]

The Eglinton Subway was being built in the 1990s when Mike Harris took over. He cancelled it, and they literally filled the tunnel back in. So, until the train is in revenue service, and I can book a seat, it is a fantasy.

Your use of the term "fantasy" is quite different from the way it is generally used here. That's your choice, I guess, but it puts you at odds with the flow of the discussion.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

First off, there was no tunnel - they had only dug out the launch pit for the TBMs.

Second off, one of the items on Harris' platform was the cancellation of the Eglinton Subway. So when he got elected, it was no surprise that he followed through with that.

Who is running on a platform of cancelling the relaunch of the Northlander?

Dan

Right now, no one is. However, none of the parties are kind to Northern ON, especially if they need to cut things. When the next election rolls around, if they need to cut due to economic reasons I fully expect this to be cut.

Your use of the term "fantasy" is quite different from the way it is generally used here. That's your choice, I guess, but it puts you at odds with the flow of the discussion.

- Paul

As someone from Northern ON, I have seen governments promise the world and fall short of delivering. It has made me jaded to their promises, and as such, nothing is true till it happens. While I am hopeful of the return of the Northlander, there are many things that could cause the government to think it is safe to cut it. For that matter, both the Liberals and PCs have been trying to divest (sell off) the ONTC since the 1990s. That is why things like NorOntair and Ontera both are no longer in existence in the ONTC.

It may go against the flow of the discussion, but it is inline with the realities of Northern Ontario.

 

[crs1026]

As someone from Northern ON, I have seen governments promise the world and fall short of delivering. It has made me jaded to their promises, and as such, nothing is true till it happens. While I am hopeful of the return of the Northlander, there are many things that could cause the government to think it is safe to cut it. For that matter, both the Liberals and PCs have been trying to divest (sell off) the ONTC since the 1990s. That is why things like NorOntair and Ontera both are no longer in existence in the ONTC.

It may go against the flow of the discussion, but it is inline with the realities of Northern Ontario.

I have equal cynicism about government... but in this venue, "fantasy" tends to imply "something that the author wants the audience to consider that hasn't been studied or seriously proposed (yet)"

Once a politician or government studies something, or states a commitment to something.... and even ponies up money..... the something still may never happen, but I would call that "empty promising" ..... or "failing to meet a commitment"..... or even "lying to our face". But the something is no longer a matter of fantasy.

Of course, one sometimes wonders why we bought the empty promise in the first place, so maybe we were just dreaming all along.....

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

I have equal cynicism about government... but in this venue, "fantasy" tends to imply "something that the author wants the audience to consider that hasn't been studied or seriously proposed (yet)"

Once a politician or government studies something, or states a commitment to something.... and even ponies up money..... the something still may never happen, but I would call that "empty promising" ..... or "failing to meet a commitment"..... or even "lying to our face". But the something is no longer a matter of fantasy.

Of course, one sometimes wonders why we bought the empty promise in the first place, so maybe we were just dreaming all along.....

- Paul

Ok, what word would be better for me to use in this context?

 

[lenaitch]

Right now, no one is. However, none of the parties are kind to Northern ON, especially if they need to cut things. When the next election rolls around, if they need to cut due to economic reasons I fully expect this to be cut.


As someone from Northern ON, I have seen governments promise the world and fall short of delivering. It has made me jaded to their promises, and as such, nothing is true till it happens. While I am hopeful of the return of the Northlander, there are many things that could cause the government to think it is safe to cut it. For that matter, both the Liberals and PCs have been trying to divest (sell off) the ONTC since the 1990s. That is why things like NorOntair and Ontera both are no longer in existence in the ONTC.

It may go against the flow of the discussion, but it is inline with the realities of Northern Ontario.

I get what you are saying but I agree with the 'fantasy' comments of the others. In this context, there are actual fantasy threads on this site, where members draw lines on maps on what they would like to see or, according to them, should happen. I think Paul's "empty promise" angle is apt. One wonders why we believe anything a politician says, particularly during an election, but in the Northlander case, at least there has been follow through - so far.

It's all about 'votes'. Whether the north is a bigger target I don't know. There are more votes to buy in the south, but it is not immune.

The government department I retired from had about $50Mn pulled from its roughly 1Bn allocation and, according to the Minister of the day, could easily be absorbed but going a couple of fleet oil changes longer. Who knew it would be that simple!

NorOntair was a wonderful service; planes to every small community across all of the north. And an astonishing money pit. Subsidizing passenger rail can't hold a candle to what it cost the government to run that service. An aircraft and all of its operating and capital costs to fly into places like Manitouwadge on a regular basis to pick up maybe on passenger wasn't sustainable.

With Ontera, they originally wanted to sell the entire ONTC program. They had to save face and sell something rather than completely back down. I don't argue that perhaps the government shouldn't be running a public telecom service. My main beef was they essentially gave it away and demanded no performance conditions from the buyer. Service has been retracted from several areas since the sale.

 

[micheal_can]

I get what you are saying but I agree with the 'fantasy' comments of the others. In this context, there are actual fantasy threads on this site, where members draw lines on maps on what they would like to see or, according to them, should happen. I think Paul's "empty promise" angle is apt. One wonders why we believe anything a politician says, particularly during an election, but in the Northlander case, at least there has been follow through - so far.

It's all about 'votes'. Whether the north is a bigger target I don't know. There are more votes to buy in the south, but it is not immune.

The government department I retired from had about $50Mn pulled from its roughly 1Bn allocation and, according to the Minister of the day, could easily be absorbed but going a couple of fleet oil changes longer. Who knew it would be that simple!

NorOntair was a wonderful service; planes to every small community across all of the north. And an astonishing money pit. Subsidizing passenger rail can't hold a candle to what it cost the government to run that service. An aircraft and all of its operating and capital costs to fly into places like Manitouwadge on a regular basis to pick up maybe on passenger wasn't sustainable.

With Ontera, they originally wanted to sell the entire ONTC program. They had to save face and sell something rather than completely back down. I don't argue that perhaps the government shouldn't be running a public telecom service. My main beef was they essentially gave it away and demanded no performance conditions from the buyer. Service has been retracted from several areas since the sale.

The government services money pits to ensure a decent access to services for all of their citizens. The problemis that in the last 20-50 years, more governments are getting in that are "Toronto centric" or are "fiscally responsible", only to announce some new pet program with no way to pay for it.

 

[lenaitch]

The government services money pits to ensure a decent access to services for all of their citizens. The problemis that in the last 20-50 years, more governments are getting in that are "Toronto centric" or are "fiscally responsible", only to announce some new pet program with no way to pay for it.

It seems to boil down to how "decent access" is defined. I'm not so sure I agree that succeeding governments are "Toronto centric" as they are urban centric. That's where the population - and the votes - and the tax dollars - lie. It's a social trend that is not unique to Ontario.

As far as I can recall. other than the remote fly-in FNTs, and probably Moosonee, every place NorOntair serviced, has a provincially-funded road and now, with the expansion of ONT bus service, most have a scheduled bus. People living in these far-flung places (I was one of them) accept their elements of isolation as a condition of owning a house for a price that a Torontonian couldn't even dream of. At least now, technology (admittedly such as it is in some places) enables access to services that simply were not available in the past.

Would it be nice if every community hospital had an MRI and full cancer care suite. Sure; but sometimes reality bites.

 

[micheal_can]

It seems to boil down to how "decent access" is defined. I'm not so sure I agree that succeeding governments are "Toronto centric" as they are urban centric. That's where the population - and the votes - and the tax dollars - lie. It's a social trend that is not unique to Ontario.

It is a trend that should stop. It has been a trend that was started to make things cheaper for the government without realizing that it goes against the right to move around the country.

As far as I can recall. other than the remote fly-in FNTs, and probably Moosonee, every place NorOntair serviced, has a provincially-funded road and now, with the expansion of ONT bus service, most have a scheduled bus. People living in these far-flung places (I was one of them) accept their elements of isolation as a condition of owning a house for a price that a Torontonian couldn't even dream of. At least now, technology (admittedly such as it is in some places) enables access to services that simply were not available in the past.

This is true. All the places served are on a provincial highway.

NorOntair - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Would it be nice if every community hospital had an MRI and full cancer care suite. Sure; but sometimes reality bites.

Every citizen should be able to get to the MRI safely. Whether it be 10 km away, or 1000 km away.