Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[crs1026]

The province released an updated initial business case that outlines options for passenger rail service from Toronto to Timmins.

"Future feasibility work on a preferred route will include a new rail connection to Cochrane, expanding the reach of this critical rail transit to 5,300 more people and providing a connection to Polar Bear Express service to Moosonee."​

​

I have no idea what that means.

Edit Again: It seems they are proposing options for connecting the Northlander and PBX, either some kind of rail connection (shuttle) between Timmins and Cochrane or a bus link between Cochrane and Matheson. The graphic says 'Option 2' but I don't know if this was from the original business case - I couldn't find it.

Ford announces $75M for Northlander train revival

Ontario Premier Doug Ford and Minister of Transportation Caroline Mulroney announced in Timmins on Sunday the government will spend $75 million to restore passenger rail service connecting the northern and southern regions.

northernontario.ctvnews.ca

I have a sneaking suspicion that, since Timmins has no operational base, the trains will continue on to Cochrane after their arrival at the Timmins station.

Much like the Sudbury-White River RDC having to deadhead onwards to North Bay for maintenance.

- Paul

 

[lenaitch]

That is where they are putting the station and they are putting in a siding?? Are there through trains warranting the passenger train pulling into a siding? I was thinking it would have gone where the Connaught Hill station was at Evans and Station, or more ideally at Highway 101 and Carium Road. Of course most ideal would be connecting back to the original Timmins station but I accept that would be a big expense for little gain.

The siding is already there into Superior Propane private property but I don't know if it is still in service. Pushing the terminal further along the remains of the line ('old hydro spur') towards downtown seems to me to be a significant expense for very little gain. Assuming the city will want to have bus transit, and maybe ONTC, the current end of track has better access.

I don't think anyone brought forward this image from the media kit, so I shall:

View attachment 391850

source: https://news.ontario.ca/en/release/1002000/bringing-passenger-rail-back-to-northeastern-ontario

That's the one I was referencing, and was trying to figure out if it was from the original business case/proposal but couldn't find it. It says "option 2" and seems to propose two alternatives; some kind of Timmins-Cochrane rail connection or a Cochrane-Matheson bus. It would make no sense to have both.

I have a sneaking suspicion that, since Timmins has no operational base, the trains will continue on to Cochrane after their arrival at the Timmins station.

Much like the Sudbury-White River RDC having to deadhead onwards to North Bay for maintenance.

- Paul

You may right and no doubt that is a logistic that ONR planners are trying to deal with, depending on the size of the fleet and frequency of service. Depending on timing, it might have passenger benefits - or not (being dumped in Cochrane at 3am in Feb might not be ideal). I don't know the implications of revenue vs. non-revenue movements.

Do the RDCs head to NB for maintenance? I've never heard that or seen them in NB (I'm in the city a fair bit). I thought they were serviced by a private contractor (Milman? maybe in Capreol?)

 

[crs1026]

You may right and no doubt that is a logistic that ONR planners are trying to deal with, depending on the size of the fleet and frequency of service. Depending on timing, it might have passenger benefits - or not (being dumped in Cochrane at 3am in Feb might not be ideal). I don't know the implications of revenue vs. non-revenue movements.

Do the RDCs head to NB for maintenance? I've never heard that or seen them in NB (I'm in the city a fair bit). I thought they were serviced by a private contractor (Milman? maybe in Capreol?)

The RDC's did deadhead to N Bay for a long time, maybe further ago that I'd care to admit....but I believe they now go to Capreol instead.

The move to Cochrane actually makes good business sense, assuming the schedule will be overnight as suggested in the BCA. Effectively there is a train north from Timmins to Cochrane in the morning, and the return southbound in the afternoon. So it provides a new local service. I wouldn't expect huge passenger volumes, but perhaps enough to cover the cost of fuel and maybe some wages.... better than deadheading empty.

The express bus from Matheson will provide the direct link so that passengers to/from Cochrane don't endure a long delay while the train serves Timmins.

- Paul

 

[smallspy]

Much like the Sudbury-White River RDC having to deadhead onwards to North Bay for maintenance.

- Paul

The RDCs used on the Sudbury-White River run get serviced right in Sudbury unless they need more major work, in which case they now get deadheaded to Toronto.

As far as I know, they have never used North Bay for any major servicing.

Dan

 

[lenaitch]

Here is the "updated initial business case" that the latest announcements seem to drawing from. I haven't given it a good read yet.

https://www.ontarionorthland.ca/sites/default/files/corporate-document-files/UIBCen.pdf

 

[micheal_can]

I don't think anyone brought forward this image from the media kit, so I shall:

View attachment 391850

source: https://news.ontario.ca/en/release/1002000/bringing-passenger-rail-back-to-northeastern-ontario

If this happens, it would be good for the North. It would be silly not to connect a train to Cochrane. I would like to see it extended further though to Hearst. This would help build the North better.

 

[EnviroTO]

For some reason I can't imagine a train pulling into Hearst is going to do much to build the north. I would think extending the Polar Express to Timmins and focusing on making Timmins the hub of the north makes more sense. The north may make use of rail for freight, but really better roads would benefit the north more than passenger rail. Sudbury to Timmins downtown to downtown 220km, but the road is 290km (33% longer) and the trip time is 3.5h. That is 82km/h following the road (which isn't really bad) but 62km/h as the crow flies which is brutal. The north has huge distances and very indirect roads. A slow train isn't going to make a difference.

If I was investing in the north:

1. Complete Highway 400 to just past Cartier (Geneva Lake interchange) connecting Central Ontario into northern Ontario more quickly. Getting from Sudbury to past Cartier is the slowest part of the trip.
2. Upgrade Sultan Road and Secondary Highway 667 to King's Highway standards opening a new faster cross-country route.
3. Create a highway running over and replacing Secondary Highway 614, Secondary Highway 625, and Blueberry Rd (Longlac-Nakina) making it more direct than the roads currently there connecting Sault Ste Marie to Nakina and the future ring of fire road.
4. Build the ring of fire road with significant first nations consultation and connections to Ogoki (Marten Falls), Eabametoong (Fort Hope), and Webequie.
5. Bring Secondary Highway 556 up to King's Highway standards.
6. Kings Highway 75 Definition: A highway from Sault Ste Marie (International Bridge) to Nakina Ontario. Resign Highway 17 from Sault Ste Marie (International Bridge) to Wawa as King's Highway 75, have Wawa to the current intersection of Secondary 614 as Highway 17 & 75, sign the new highway to Nakina via Manitouwadge, Caramat, and Longlac as Highway 75.
7. Kings Highway 14 Definition: A highway from Sault Ste Marie (International Bridge) to Sudbury Ontario. Resign Highway 17 from Sault Ste Marie (International Bridge) to Highway 400 as King's Highway 14.
8. Kings Highway 101 Definition: A highway from the outskirts of Sault Ste Marie (Heyden Ontario) through Timmins to the Quebec border and Quebec Highway 388. Resign Secondary Highway 556 to Highway 101 from Heyden to Highway 129. Resign Highway 129 from that intersection (current secondary 556 and highway 129 intersection) to the current secondary 665 and highway 129 intersection as Highway 101. Resign from that intersection to the current 101 and 129 intersection as Highway 17 & 101. Resign from that intersection to the current 101 & 129 intersection just south of Chapleau to only Highway 101. Resign the highway signage on the section of 129 into Chapleau as Secondary 501.
9. Kings Highway 17 Definition: The fastest direct route from the Manitoba border (Manitoba Highway 1) to Highway 417 near Ottawa. Resign Highway 102 as Highway 17 (keep Highway 11 on the current route through Thunder Bay but remove Highway 17 from that route). Reconfigure the intersection of highways in Wawa, and resign Highway 101 from Wawa to Highway 129 as Highway 17, sign the highway from there to what is currently the intersection of Highway 129 and Secondary 667 as Highway 17 & 101. Resign Secondary 667 and Sultans Road as Highway 17. Resign Highway 144 from Secondary 560 down to Cartier (Highway 400 Geneva Lake interchange) as Highway 17 & 144. Sign Highway 400 from Sudbury By-Pass to Cartier as Highway 400 & 17.
10. Kings Highway 144 Definition: The connection from Highway 400 to Northeastern Ontario. Signage from the end of Highway 400 to Secondary 560 as Highway 17 & 144, continue to intersection of Highway 101, resign Highway 101 from Highway 144 to Secondary 655 as Highway 101 & 144. Upgrade Secondary 655 to Kings Highway standards and resign as Highway 144.
11. Ontario Northland - Northlander train from Toronto to Timmins.
12. Ontario Northland - Polar Bear Express from Timmins to Moosonee.
13. Ontario Northland - Soo Service from Toronto to Sudbury (train) and Sault Ste Marie (train / bus). Link to Sault Ste Marie may need to be bus initially.
14. Ontario Northland / VIA Partnership - Superior Service (RDC) from Sudbury to Wawa and Thunder Bay.

 

[ShonTron]

Highway 655 is, despite its secondary designation, built to a very high standard, with a 90 km/h limit like 11 and 17 in the north.

Why it wasn’t renumbered to 155 when the extension towards Cochrane was opened, I don’t know.

 

[lenaitch]

For some reason I can't imagine a train pulling into Hearst is going to do much to build the north. I would think extending the Polar Express to Timmins and focusing on making Timmins the hub of the north makes more sense. The north may make use of rail for freight, but really better roads would benefit the north more than passenger rail. Sudbury to Timmins downtown to downtown 220km, but the road is 290km (33% longer) and the trip time is 3.5h. That is 82km/h following the road (which isn't really bad) but 62km/h as the crow flies which is brutal. The north has huge distances and very indirect roads. A slow train isn't going to make a difference.

If I was investing in the north:

1. Complete Highway 400 to just past Cartier (Geneva Lake interchange) connecting Central Ontario into northern Ontario more quickly. Getting from Sudbury to past Cartier is the slowest part of the trip.
2. Upgrade Sultan Road and Secondary Highway 667 to King's Highway standards opening a new faster cross-country route.
3. Create a highway running over and replacing Secondary Highway 614, Secondary Highway 625, and Blueberry Rd (Longlac-Nakina) making it more direct than the roads currently there connecting Sault Ste Marie to Nakina and the future ring of fire road.
4. Build the ring of fire road with significant first nations consultation and connections to Ogoki (Marten Falls), Eabametoong (Fort Hope), and Webequie.
5. Bring Secondary Highway 556 up to King's Highway standards.
6. Kings Highway 75 Definition: A highway from Sault Ste Marie (International Bridge) to Nakina Ontario. Resign Highway 17 from Sault Ste Marie (International Bridge) to Wawa as King's Highway 75, have Wawa to the current intersection of Secondary 614 as Highway 17 & 75, sign the new highway to Nakina via Manitouwadge, Caramat, and Longlac as Highway 75.
7. Kings Highway 14 Definition: A highway from Sault Ste Marie (International Bridge) to Sudbury Ontario. Resign Highway 17 from Sault Ste Marie (International Bridge) to Highway 400 as King's Highway 14.
8. Kings Highway 101 Definition: A highway from the outskirts of Sault Ste Marie (Heyden Ontario) through Timmins to the Quebec border and Quebec Highway 388. Resign Secondary Highway 556 to Highway 101 from Heyden to Highway 129. Resign Highway 129 from that intersection (current secondary 556 and highway 129 intersection) to the current secondary 665 and highway 129 intersection as Highway 101. Resign from that intersection to the current 101 and 129 intersection as Highway 17 & 101. Resign from that intersection to the current 101 & 129 intersection just south of Chapleau to only Highway 101. Resign the highway signage on the section of 129 into Chapleau as Secondary 501.
9. Kings Highway 17 Definition: The fastest direct route from the Manitoba border (Manitoba Highway 1) to Highway 417 near Ottawa. Resign Highway 102 as Highway 17 (keep Highway 11 on the current route through Thunder Bay but remove Highway 17 from that route). Reconfigure the intersection of highways in Wawa, and resign Highway 101 from Wawa to Highway 129 as Highway 17, sign the highway from there to what is currently the intersection of Highway 129 and Secondary 667 as Highway 17 & 101. Resign Secondary 667 and Sultans Road as Highway 17. Resign Highway 144 from Secondary 560 down to Cartier (Highway 400 Geneva Lake interchange) as Highway 17 & 144. Sign Highway 400 from Sudbury By-Pass to Cartier as Highway 400 & 17.
10. Kings Highway 144 Definition: The connection from Highway 400 to Northeastern Ontario. Signage from the end of Highway 400 to Secondary 560 as Highway 17 & 144, continue to intersection of Highway 101, resign Highway 101 from Highway 144 to Secondary 655 as Highway 101 & 144. Upgrade Secondary 655 to Kings Highway standards and resign as Highway 144.
11. Ontario Northland - Northlander train from Toronto to Timmins.
12. Ontario Northland - Polar Bear Express from Timmins to Moosonee.
13. Ontario Northland - Soo Service from Toronto to Sudbury (train) and Sault Ste Marie (train / bus). Link to Sault Ste Marie may need to be bus initially.
14. Ontario Northland / VIA Partnership - Superior Service (RDC) from Sudbury to Wawa and Thunder Bay.

(I'm not sure why those false quotes are there - perhaps my computer needs coffee)

My. So much money and dynamite (and new highway signs!). Too much to pick apart on a line-item basis. While investment and improvement is warranted, the reality is that traffic volumes on northern highways, particularly the secondary routes, don't come anywhere close to justifying that level of improvement. Much of the traffic on the primary routes of 11 and 17 is 'enroute' - heading from the west to southern Ontario. As straight-as-an-arrow highway from Hearst to SSM might get a load of lumber to the US faster and somewhat cheaper, it won't necessarily mean more will make the trip. There is more at play.

'Opening up the north' is often a favourite phrase of politicians where they are in the mood to toss our money around (or at least make promises with it). Most of the economic potential of the north is resource-based and will inevitably result in harvesting/extracting it, processing it to some degree, then transporting it out of the area. Manufacturing will most often locate closer to markets than raw materials. It is instructive to note that, even with government largess, an EV battery plant was recently announced for Windsor - near the market, rather than northern Ontario - near the inputs.

Trying to make any one community the 'transportation hub' ignores the reality of the geography and distances of Northern Ontario. Timmins could well become a hub of the northeast, but it would have no impact any of the other large cities in the north, particularly the northwest, which are hubs in their own right,

 

[DirectionNorth]

For some reason I can't imagine a train pulling into Hearst is going to do much to build the north. I would think extending the Polar Express to Timmins and focusing on making Timmins the hub of the north makes more sense. The north may make use of rail for freight, but really better roads would benefit the north more than passenger rail. Sudbury to Timmins downtown to downtown 220km, but the road is 290km (33% longer) and the trip time is 3.5h. That is 82km/h following the road (which isn't really bad) but 62km/h as the crow flies which is brutal. The north has huge distances and very indirect roads. A slow train isn't going to make a difference.

I'm personally not a fan of the Northlander, but ...

Complete Highway 400 to just past Cartier (Geneva Lake interchange) connecting Central Ontario into northern Ontario more quickly. Getting from Sudbury to past Cartier is the slowest part of the trip.

Let's build highways to the middle-of-nowhere! Cartier's population is less than 250, that's hardly the demand needed for a 400-series.

Upgrade Sultan Road and Secondary Highway 667 to King's Highway standards opening a new faster cross-country route.

I'd be fine with upgrading Sultan Road, but people will still choose to drive through the States unless we build a 400-series from Sudbury to Kenora. Not happening.

Create a highway running over and replacing Secondary Highway 614, Secondary Highway 625, and Blueberry Rd (Longlac-Nakina) making it more direct than the roads currently there connecting Sault Ste Marie to Nakina and the future ring of fire road.

As a province, I think we need a serious discussion on the future of the Hudson Bay Lowlands. Do we leave it as-is and possibly develop a tourism industry there, or do we go the resource development route?

1. Bring Secondary Highway 556 up to King's Highway standards.

Does the 556 serve a genuine purpose or is this road building in Northern Ontario for the sake of road building in Northern Ontario?

Kings Highway 75 Definition: A highway from Sault Ste Marie (International Bridge) to Nakina Ontario. Resign Highway 17 from Sault Ste Marie (International Bridge) to Wawa as King's Highway 75, have Wawa to the current intersection of Secondary 614 as Highway 17 & 75, sign the new highway to Nakina via Manitouwadge, Caramat, and Longlac as Highway 75.

A more limited highway from Marathon to Longlac will serve the same transportation need.

Kings Highway 14 Definition: A highway from Sault Ste Marie (International Bridge) to Sudbury Ontario. Resign Highway 17 from Sault Ste Marie (International Bridge) to Highway 400 as King's Highway 14.

Resigning 17 will be a bucket of confusion. Can you explain the purpose of that move?

Kings Highway 101 Definition: A highway from the outskirts of Sault Ste Marie (Heyden Ontario) through Timmins to the Quebec border and Quebec Highway 388. Resign Secondary Highway 556 to Highway 101 from Heyden to Highway 129. Resign Highway 129 from that intersection (current secondary 556 and highway 129 intersection) to the current secondary 665 and highway 129 intersection as Highway 101. Resign from that intersection to the current 101 and 129 intersection as Highway 17 & 101. Resign from that intersection to the current 101 & 129 intersection just south of Chapleau to only Highway 101. Resign the highway signage on the section of 129 into Chapleau as Secondary 501.

At this point, drawing lines on a map. Improving the Sultan Road will serve the same purpose.

Kings Highway 17 Definition: The fastest direct route from the Manitoba border (Manitoba Highway 1) to Highway 417 near Ottawa. Resign Highway 102 as Highway 17 (keep Highway 11 on the current route through Thunder Bay but remove Highway 17 from that route). Reconfigure the intersection of highways in Wawa, and resign Highway 101 from Wawa to Highway 129 as Highway 17, sign the highway from there to what is currently the intersection of Highway 129 and Secondary 667 as Highway 17 & 101. Resign Secondary 667 and Sultans Road as Highway 17. Resign Highway 144 from Secondary 560 down to Cartier (Highway 400 Geneva Lake interchange) as Highway 17 & 144. Sign Highway 400 from Sudbury By-Pass to Cartier as Highway 400 & 17.

I'm not even going to try to digest this statement, other than asking for its purpose.

Ontario Northland - Northlander train from Toronto to Timmins.

You want a train but you don't want a train?

Ontario Northland - Polar Bear Express from Timmins to Moosonee.

Not sure what you're asking for, this exists in a basic form already.

Ontario Northland - Soo Service from Toronto to Sudbury (train) and Sault Ste Marie (train / bus). Link to Sault Ste Marie may need to be bus initially.
Ontario Northland / VIA Partnership - Superior Service (RDC) from Sudbury to Wawa and Thunder Bay.

At the end of that, I need to ask: what is the purpose of these projects? If you don't have a need for them, are you going to build them and hope for the best (which seems to be the strategy)?

Southern Ontario has a very large number of potential projects to be funded, so unless there is a real purpose to drawing lines all across Algoma and Timiskaming, I'd say that it's a hard no.

 

[just east of the creek]

I could research this myself....but I will go to the experts. Any idea on projected travel times for the new 'Northlander"? Why stops at Langstaff and Gormley? Do we have any idea of equipment?

 

[EnviroTO]

I'm personally not a fan of the Northlander, but ...

Let's build highways to the middle-of-nowhere! Cartier's population is less than 250, that's hardly the demand needed for a 400-series.

This isn't a 400 series highway to get to Cartier. It is to get people on the 17 Southeast/Southwest by-pass and 400 past Sudbury and environs. It would carry a significant portion of what goes on 144, 17 over the top of Thunder Bay, and 11 which is used for cross-country traffic from Ottawa and points east to western Canada today. They are making a 4-lane highway between Thunder Bay and Nipigon and it isn't because Nipigon is a major destination, it is because this is the cross Canada route.

I'd be fine with upgrading Sultan Road, but people will still choose to drive through the States unless we build a 400-series from Sudbury to Kenora. Not happening.

Today the fastest route (not shortest, but fastest) from Winnipeg to Ottawa is via Highway 11 which is 2,140km. This route would cut the distance between Ottawa and Winnipeg to less than 2,042km, which is as good as the best route through the USA but would be faster.

As a province, I think we need a serious discussion on the future of the Hudson Bay Lowlands. Do we leave it as-is and possibly develop a tourism industry there, or do we go the resource development route?

True. The resources there are key to a lot of the low-carbon technologies we are building today, but we need to ensure we aren't trading one environmental disaster for another and have a more serious focus on minimizing the impact of these activities on the natural environment and which also ensuring that end the end the environment is returned to its natural state.

Does the 556 serve a genuine purpose or is this road building in Northern Ontario for the sake of road building in Northern Ontario?

It is the fastest route from Sault Ste Marie to Timmins. Highway 129 south of 556 to Thessalon is the more useless road because it isn't the fastest route to any significant destination.

A more limited highway from Marathon to Longlac will serve the same transportation need.

But double the maintenance on a regular basis because it wouldn't replace the ongoing maintenance requirement on the roads that are already there.

Resigning 17 will be a bucket of confusion. Can you explain the purpose of that move?

It is the fastest route from Winnipeg to Ottawa. Today the fastest route from Winnipeg to Ottawa takes 17, 102, 17 again, 11, and then 17 again. The highway route today guides people on a path that might as well be a tourist trail.

At this point, drawing lines on a map. Improving the Sultan Road will serve the same purpose.

This is a resigning exercise with the highway upgrades already covered. This is taking 101 off the section from Wawa to Chapleau and moving it to Sault Ste Marie to Chapleau because Highway 17 would run Wawa to Chapleau.

I'm not even going to try to digest this statement, other than asking for its purpose.

Highway 17 signage from Manitoba border to 417 in Ottawa following the fastest route between those places rather than a tour of Thunder Bay downtown and Sault Ste Marie.

You want a train but you don't want a train?

This is what is already announced. I'm not sure that service between North Bay and Timmins is enough to sustain the service but I guess the provincial business case believes so. If the track can be upgraded to a decent speed it should be better than the bus.

Not sure what you're asking for, this exists in a basic form already.

This is starting the Polar Bear Express in Timmins rather than Cochrane for two reasons... Timmins is the largest center in the area, and the Northlander would take people to Timmins. Timmins makes more sense as a hub compared to Cochrane.

At the end of that, I need to ask: what is the purpose of these projects? If you don't have a need for them, are you going to build them and hope for the best (which seems to be the strategy)?

Today there is RDC service from Sudbury to White River, but it isn't connected to any bus / train network. It doesn't provide a network connectivity to allow a chance of real success. Extending the service to Thunder Bay (to link two actual places), having a service once daily to Sudbury from Toronto at times that make sense to connect to Sault Ste Marie (bus) and Thunder Bay (RDC) allows greater use of what is already there.

Southern Ontario has a very large number of potential projects to be funded, so unless there is a real purpose to drawing lines all across Algoma and Timiskaming, I'd say that it's a hard no.

Most of those lines are already there or replace something we already need to pay a yearly maintenance for but don't get as much value for. The actual infrastructure investments are (there are only 4):

1. Chelmsford-Phelans-Cartier by-pass replacing 144 that exists today and the end result is less km and faster route (which an upfront infrastructure investment that reduces ongoing costs).
2. Secondary Highway 667 and Sultan Road to Kings Highway standards. An upgrade to get better value across the northern highway network. Sudbury to Thunder Bay is 1000km on existing routes, and would be reduced by about 100km with the upgrade which is less fuel, time, etc.
3. Create a highway running over and replacing Secondary Highway 614, Secondary Highway 625, and Blueberry Rd (Longlac-Nakina) which is mostly pre-existing road being upgraded minus the Manitouwadge to Caramat section which would be new. Today the fastest route to Nakina from Sault Ste Marie is 687km. By connecting Manitouwadge and Caramat with a road to standard the distance would drop by about 100km.
4. Bring Secondary Highway 556 up to King's Highway standards.

In summary, a by-pass of a slow moving highway through towns near Sudbury, upgrading three roads (667-Sultan, 614/625/Blueberry, and 556) to a higher standard, and building a new section of road from Manitouwadge to Caramat. All the other items are signage (to guide better use of infrastructure), trains that already exist being extended to connect to places to make them more useful, and connecting a bus to those trains.

 

[christine]

I could research this myself....but I will go to the experts. Any idea on projected travel times for the new 'Northlander"? Why stops at Langstaff and Gormley? Do we have any idea of equipment?

I suspect the note about a special/different schedule for Sunday would be to accommodate cottage country which could be a day or evening train.

Langstaff is to offer connection to regional GO bus services (i.e. the buses that utilize the Highway 407 corridor). Gormely was added due to parking facilities and its close proximity to Highway 404.

 

[Fritter]

Gormely was added due to parking facilities and its close proximity to Highway 404.

In my humble opinion, I would think Bloomington would make for a better stop than Gormely.

 

[DirectionNorth]

This isn't a 400 series highway to get to Cartier. It is to get people on the 17 Southeast/Southwest by-pass and 400 past Sudbury and environs. It would carry a significant portion of what goes on 144, 17 over the top of Thunder Bay, and 11 which is used for cross-country traffic from Ottawa and points east to western Canada today. They are making a 4-lane highway between Thunder Bay and Nipigon and it isn't because Nipigon is a major destination, it is because this is the cross Canada route.

Why not upgrade the existing routes to service SSM and the lakeshore communities as well? We have two highways, is there a justified need for a third?

Today the fastest route (not shortest, but fastest) from Winnipeg to Ottawa is via Highway 11 which is 2,140km. This route would cut the distance between Ottawa and Winnipeg to less than 2,042km, which is as good as the best route through the USA but would be faster.

Only if it's a 400-series highway. If you thought a 11/17 upgrade was expensive, this new route will have a surprise for you ...

True. The resources there are key to a lot of the low-carbon technologies we are building today, but we need to ensure we aren't trading one environmental disaster for another and have a more serious focus on minimizing the impact of these activities on the natural environment and which also ensuring that end the end the environment is returned to its natural state.

It is the fastest route from Sault Ste Marie to Timmins. Highway 129 south of 556 to Thessalon is the more useless road because it isn't the fastest route to any significant destination.

This feels like some of my fantasy transit maps, where I draw lines between hubs because I can.

But double the maintenance on a regular basis because it wouldn't replace the ongoing maintenance requirement on the roads that are already there.

It's not double because I'm using part of the same road.

A new 400-series highway through the north will be horrendous to maintain. Snowplowing alone will cost millions.

It is the fastest route from Winnipeg to Ottawa. Today the fastest route from Winnipeg to Ottawa takes 17, 102, 17 again, 11, and then 17 again. The highway route today guides people on a path that might as well be a tourist trail.

Google tells me the fastest route from Winnipeg to Toronto is the 17. Besides, the numbering debate matters less with GPS technology.

Highway 17 signage from Manitoba border to 417 in Ottawa following the fastest route between those places rather than a tour of Thunder Bay downtown and Sault Ste Marie.

A more limited bypass of the Sault could be needed (Thunder Bay already has a bypass) - but the current routing isn't terrible, and a bypass will involve long negotiations with First Nations.

This is starting the Polar Bear Express in Timmins rather than Cochrane for two reasons... Timmins is the largest center in the area, and the Northlander would take people to Timmins. Timmins makes more sense as a hub compared to Cochrane.

This I agree with.

Today there is RDC service from Sudbury to White River, but it isn't connected to any bus / train network. It doesn't provide a network connectivity to allow a chance of real success. Extending the service to Thunder Bay (to link two actual places), having a service once daily to Sudbury from Toronto at times that make sense to connect to Sault Ste Marie (bus) and Thunder Bay (RDC) allows greater use of what is already there.

The Lake Superior route is one of VIA's ridiculous remote service requirements. I don't know (and I don't want to know) how much a Thunder Bay extension would cost.

Most of those lines are already there or replace something we already need to pay a yearly maintenance for but don't get as much value for. The actual infrastructure investments are (there are only 4):

1. Chelmsford-Phelans-Cartier by-pass replacing 144 that exists today and the end result is less km and faster route (which an upfront infrastructure investment that reduces ongoing costs).
2. Secondary Highway 667 and Sultan Road to Kings Highway standards. An upgrade to get better value across the northern highway network. Sudbury to Thunder Bay is 1000km on existing routes, and would be reduced by about 100km with the upgrade which is less fuel, time, etc.
3. Create a highway running over and replacing Secondary Highway 614, Secondary Highway 625, and Blueberry Rd (Longlac-Nakina) which is mostly pre-existing road being upgraded minus the Manitouwadge to Caramat section which would be new. Today the fastest route to Nakina from Sault Ste Marie is 687km. By connecting Manitouwadge and Caramat with a road to standard the distance would drop by about 100km.
4. Bring Secondary Highway 556 up to King's Highway standards.

In summary, a by-pass of a slow moving highway through towns near Sudbury, upgrading three roads (667-Sultan, 614/625/Blueberry, and 556) to a higher standard, and building a new section of road from Manitouwadge to Caramat. All the other items are signage (to guide better use of infrastructure), trains that already exist being extended to connect to places to make them more useful, and connecting a bus to those trains.

That adds up to hundreds of kilometers of upgrades, in remote areas with little amenities, whose cost will be astronomical. In addition, the new road will be 50 - 100 km long. There's a reason people drive on the 17 and 11 - there's nothing on the interior roads (the Sultan Road has been open to the public since the 1970s). Upgrades of the highways based on traffic volumes are warranted between North Bay and Espanola, around some town centers, between Nipigon and Thunder Bay, around Kenora, and west of Ottawa. Some links in the interior (Sultan, White River -> Longlac) are also neccessary, but we should put that money into the transit network and not spend money on interior roads that will be lightly used.