Ontario Budget Cut and Transit Expansion

[GraphicMatt]

It's no wonder the province decided to cut funding for transit, especially to Toronto. Cutting Toronto's transit funding was 100% politically savy and expedient.

We have a lame-duck mayor, whose whining about what was promised was just sad to watch on television yesterday, and a TTC-chair who's lost in corruption and disarray. But most of all, the one thing McGuinty knows, and knows very well, is that no matter what he does or does not do, Toronto will always vote Liberal. You going to vote in Hudak and the Harris-like PCs or another NDP Rae-type disaster? I didn't think so, and neither does Dalton.

So, you've got mediocre leadership in the city, and no political risk for the premier. It's the perfect storm. The new mayor will inherit this mess.

We generally disagree on things, but you're absolutely right here. This was a calculated play by the liberals, knowing that they'd lose more overall support with a bigger budget deficit than they would in Toronto with a transit cut.

I'm not going to let it go, though. I'd take a Hudak government in 2011 (hopefully a minority) if it meant the Liberals got the message that Toronto doesn't just roll over and accept whatever.

 

[TOareaFan]

So, wait, there's no net economic benefit from making it easier for low income people to be more mobile? You don't see how that creates economic activity and jobs?

Transit isn't just a convenience thing. It's vital to urban economic growth.

There may be valid reasons to subsidise lower income people for the cost of living.....but it the farebox is not the right place to do it. The orignal poster suggested $3 tokens for people earning $30k a year and $4 tokens for people earning $60k....are we to carry our t4 around with us? are we to be tattooed as low income or mid income or what?

Unworkable.

Let's say, however, we found a way to make it workable....what is so magical about transit that makes it a service that should have a lower cost dependant on income? Why not other goods and services? Why is cable tv not priced according to income? Newspapers? Eyeglasses?

 

[TOareaFan]

Just killing some time today surfing around and I note that the one zone cash fare on the London Underground is £4 at yesterday's conversion rate that is a little over $6CDN......wonder what impact that sort of cash fare would have on the books of the ttc.

 

[GraphicMatt]

There may be valid reasons to subsidise lower income people for the cost of living.....but it the farebox is not the right place to do it. The orignal poster suggested $3 tokens for people earning $30k a year and $4 tokens for people earning $60k....are we to carry our t4 around with us? are we to be tattooed as low income or mid income or what?

Unworkable.

Let's say, however, we found a way to make it workable....what is so magical about transit that makes it a service that should have a lower cost dependant on income? Why not other goods and services? Why is cable tv not priced according to income? Newspapers? Eyeglasses?

Well, yeah, I don't agree with that structure either. Keep the fares low for everyone and have higher income earners pay for transit service out of their income and property taxes.

Cable TV, newspapers and eyeglasses aren't vital to someone from a low-income background getting a post-secondary degree or a job downtown. Economic mobility isn't something the free market creates very well on its own.

Well, wait, maybe eyeglasses. And we do have subsidies in place for low income people to get cheap eyeglasses.

 

[TOareaFan]

Well, yeah, I don't agree with that structure either. Keep the fares low for everyone and have higher income earners pay for transit service out of their income and property taxes.

I think keeping them appropriate for the level of service is what the goal should be...not necessarily keeping them low.

Cable TV, newspapers and eyeglasses aren't vital to someone from a low-income background getting a post-secondary degree or a job downtown. Economic mobility isn't something the free market creates very well on its own.

Well, wait, maybe eyeglasses. And we do have subsidies in place for low income people to get cheap eyeglasses.

The subsidies are not at the point of sale though...are they? I don't wear eyeglasses but if I were to buy glasses at Hakim (or anywhere else) could I show them my t4 and get a discount from the full price? Or does everyone pay the same price and then there is some other way of obtaining the subsidy?

I am not sure the ttc is a requirement for someone from a low income background to get an education...is it? Perhaps if they chose to go to the UofT or Ryerson you could make that case but that is a choice....no? And, again, we have other methods of subsidizing the education of lower income people.....it is not through point of sale discounts on services of equal value.

 

[ssiguy2]

Poor Toronto, now what is the city going to bitch about?
You may hate the Liberals for what they have done but remember this was the same government that UPLOADED many of the costs that all Ontario cities were saddled with.

Another decade of a 6km subway extension. I never thought I'd see the day when Vancouver has a much larger and comprehensive mass/rapid transit system than Toronto but voiila, here it is. Even what Torontonians consider car-crazy Calgary will have as large a rapid transit system as Toronto by 2020 all thanks to Toronto inetria.

All of this has much less to do with money than Toronto's inability to get it's head out of it's ass. Look at the Spadina Ext.............funding secured in 2008 and the line will open late 2015. How the hell does it take 7 years to build a 6km subway extension? Look at Vancouver's Millenium Line. From the minute it was announced it took just 22 months to get the 18km line up and running. Toronto wouldn't have the paper work done by then. Vancouver started to put the pillions in immediately while the stations hadn't even been designed yet. They began construction BEFORE the enviornmental review had even started. Even then the review only took 2 months due to a very small section that had to be done. Vancouver knew an enviornmental assesment was not neccesary when going down the middle of the road or along a rail ROW. In other words it built now and asked questions later. Somehow Toronto just hasn't figured that. out.
Third world countries are leaving Toronto in it's wake and instead of just looking outside the box for cheaper {with the 17km/hour TC, wouldn't be hard} and just build it. Declare it now and begin building by the summer a true rapid transit LRT or prefferable a cheaper faster, easily executed Monorail system but noooooooooooooo as that would require Toronto to do something today which it can do next year but in Toronto's case next year never comes. Toronto would have gotten $9 billion of rapid transit money and yet all it could come up with are streetcar routes. Let me see....................90 km of rapid transit Monorail all built by 2016 or 120km of streetcar which hopefully will be completed and moving at a blistering 17km/hour by 2020. That's a toughy..............I'll get back to you.

 

[junctionist]

It's looking like the only way to expand transit in Toronto properly is through small and incremental network additions on a yearly basis. We could get several hundred million dollars a year to add to the subway network, with perhaps additonal federal funding and road tolls to build a larger initial line like the DRL. There would never be any flashy announcements except for when the idea is first adopted. Even if cuts were made, cancelling entire lines would not be the default idea when budget problems come up.

 

[ssiguy2]

I agree to an extent. Now that Spadina has begun and is totally paid for there is no reason to stop it. The Sheppard line is another matter, just let it die and as I understand the only thing that has been built yet is the area around a GO station so that's OK.
The problem with these "incremental" extensions is that thiss what has gotten Toronto into the fix it's in. Checked out the Sao Paulo expansion and the 100km system is going to cost just $1,7 billion including trains and stations. Even if you double the cost for Toronto labour its still incredible cheap because much of the cost is for vehicles which will cost Brazil the same as Canada. The more modern systems can be built at $20/million per km plus stations and trains but no...............
Why the hell is Toronto not doing this? Very very affordable rapid transit with a far smaller footprint than streetcars, much faster to build, only take up one lane of traffic not 2, allows access to businesses on other side of the street, no ugly overhead wires, due to small footprint can avoid sewer/water under street pipes, green, and cheaper to run due to automation so log term benefits are also there. The newer trains are also too cool for words.
Why isn't this been presented and why is it not being built?

 

[lead82]

All I gotta say is April fools. We should never believe governments making big funding announcements on April 1st.

 

[leopetr]

Or does everyone pay the same price and then there is some other way of obtaining the subsidy?

The simplest way to subsidize lower incomes is to put the subsidy on their annual tax return. This is done for the GST refund and a several other things. Unfortunately, people at the lowest income are also the least likely to file a tax return.

 

[Dan416]

The best idea I've heard so far is the 1% Toronto sales tax. A small sales tax, some moderate road tolls, a portion of the income tax, those small things could add up for some sustainable funding for the city, and with that sustainable funding, funding for transit to do what we want without the province. I think it's time we got rid of Metrolinx. This announcement has proven Metrolinx has no purpose since it really doesn't have any power.

 

[MisterF]

The best idea I've heard so far is the 1% Toronto sales tax. A small sales tax, some moderate road tolls, a portion of the income tax, those small things could add up for some sustainable funding for the city, and with that sustainable funding, funding for transit to do what we want without the province. I think it's time we got rid of Metrolinx. This announcement has proven Metrolinx has no purpose since it really doesn't have any power.

Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. If the problem is that Metrolinx has no power, then surely the solution is to give it power. For starters, the power to implement a 1% sales tax not only in the city of Toronto, but throughout the entire area Metrolinx services.

 

[TOareaFan]

Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. If the problem is that Metrolinx has no power, then surely the solution is to give it power. For starters, the power to implement a 1% sales tax not only in the city of Toronto, but throughout the entire area Metrolinx services.

and spend that money throughout the region....not just on streetcar lines in Toronto.....so it does not, really, address the issue that this thread is about.

 

[MisterF]

and spend that money throughout the region....not just on streetcar lines in Toronto.....so it does not, really, address the issue that this thread is about.

The flip side to that argument is that the City of Toronto has been its own worst enemy when it comes transit. It's not interested in subway expansion, and most of the Transit City lines will only make the most crowded subways even more crowded. It took Metrolinx to get the DRL back onto a transit plan.

 

[TOareaFan]

The flip side to that argument is that the City of Toronto has been its own worst enemy when it comes transit. It's not interested in subway expansion, and most of the Transit City lines will only make the most crowded subways even more crowded. It took Metrolinx to get the DRL back onto a transit plan.

I wasn't making an argument for any particular type of transit.....I was just pointing out that if you raise the funds via a sales tax over the entire GTA that there will be an expectation/demand that the funds are spent, relatively equally, over the GTA and not just within the "borders" of the city of Toronto.