OLG Toronto/GTA casino proposal (where to put it?)

[spider]

Slightly OT but what ever happened to the thought that Welfare recipients be required to attend meetings for 4 hours per day or lose their benefits? 9-11am and 3-5pm or something like that, counselling and job hunting skills could be made available or those who don't want help could just sit there and stare at the wall. Anyone who shows up impaired loses a day on his Welfare cheque.

It's not like they don't have time.

 

[brockm]

A better question would be: should we explore legalising under-age drinking if it seems like a good source of revenue?

That's actually not a better question. It dances over the premises around agency and suffrage upon which drinking ages are justified on. The corollary implied would be that adult gamblers are akin to children. It is to infantalize them. The alternative corollary is that children are capable of the same responsible agency as adults. Thus, on the face of it, I'm going to have to say this question is based on fallacious premises.

Plenty of research shows banning alcohol leads to a rise in criminal activity - thus we tax it to internalise the damage it causes and we let it be (since people overwhelmingly favour its availability).

The restriction of almost any vice leads to increases in criminal activity.

As things stand, most Torontonians don't want a casino anywhere near them. We would be imposing an activity with very well known negative social consequences on our city just for the sake of increasing revenue and nothing else.

Are you arguing those social consequences are externalized into the proximate community?

 

[RC8]

That's actually not a better question. It dances over the premises around agency and suffrage upon which drinking ages are justified on. The corollary implied would be that adult gamblers are akin to children. It is to infantalize them. The alternative corollary is that children are capable of the same responsible agency as adults. Thus, on the face of it, I'm going to have to say this question is based on fallacious premises.

Fair enough. How about this, then, should the government be looking to allow cigarette companies to market their products as openly as they wish in order to increase tax revenues through cigarette sales? (assume that extra profit would make up for increased healthcare costs)

The restriction of almost any vice leads to increases in criminal activity.

And yet while legalising alcohol reduces violent crime, introducing casinos is strongly correlated with a surge of violent crime.

Are you arguing those social consequences are externalized into the proximate community?

Yes.

Toronto does not have a revenue problem. It is a very healthy city financially and anyone who knows anything about economics can tell you that. Any financial woes we do have are due to the fact we absurdly subsidise the rest of Ontario and Canada. The people of Toronto overwhelmingly do not want a casino in their wards. It would therefore be a very unfair and unnecessary move from the city and the province to punish a segment of Torontonians with the obvious and well-known negative social consequences of a casino in order to fund infrastructure in the likes of Sarnia.

The plan is poorly designed and does not appropriately distribute responsibilities among the big players. Downtown Toronto will be stuck with the worse of the casino while the revenues are spread out around the rest of the city and province.

If the 10 Toronto wards closest to where the casino is proposed got to keep a much larger share of its profits, then I would listen to this proposal.

 

[diminutive]

There are two somewhat separate issues at play here. First, is it prudent to allow casinos/gambling from a socioeconomic perspective? Second, if we answer 'yes' to the first question, where should we locate these casinos?

I don't have a good answer to the first question. On a regional level, I'd imagine the benefits are outweighed by the costs in terms of problem gambling. More over, at least part of the economic/tax revenues would have been diverted from other entertainment venues. I'm also morally uncomfortable with a government encouraging activities it believes to be harmful in the interest of raising revenues; it's simply bad public finance to promote socially negative activities in order to raise money.

But as a Province we've clearly, if crassly, decided these things are good ideas. Once that decision's been made I dont see why putting one downtown is a bad idea. It's got the most supporting infrastructure.

 

[PinkLucy]

Yeah, sure, I see them everyday, wasting our tax money. They're nothing but a puss fill boil on society's ass, just waiting to erupt with puss and blood. I don't buy into their sob stories, the more foolish however, do, and it's those weak links that create our cash strapped society.

Yes there are people who abuse the system, but they are actually the minority. I'd suggest you walk a mile in someone's shoes before criticizing but even then I don't think you'd understand. As someMidTowner says, your opinion sickens me, but even so, I truly hope you never find yourself destitute and have someone like you look down their nose at you.

 

[Hanlansboy]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but yours sickens me.

Oh....I'm hiding the pain...please, wake up to reality, or do you like supporting dead beats?, how then, do you propose we get people off welfare? If we do nothing, nothing will change, seems I'm the only one with the nerve to speak the truth, not my fault if you can't accept it. Do you have any idea of how much money is wasted on welfare and associated social services? I've lived downtown longer then you've been alive, I've seen the effects of keeping people on welfare indefinitely, we are not doing them, nor ourselves any favours. They'll never become productive members of society, and we will never stop having to pay for them, to think it will change without harsh measures is completely naive and unrealistic. There is no excuse to be on welfare, health issues aside. After finishing my first round of chemo and surgery, and being declared cancer free, I attempted to return to work. This was back in the early 90's, my career in health care was tough, the provincial government was cutting health care and I could not find work. I could have easily went on long term disability or welfare, but I have my dignity and pride, I will never be anything less hen a productive member of society. I actually took at minimum wage security job, my EI was finished, so I took what ever work there was. It might not have been something to brag about, but I could at least hold my head high and say I was working. There is always work out there, and numerous government programs to assist welfare recipients getting back to work, problem is they refuse, we make it too easy for them, beginning to understand yet? No? Oh well!

 

[Hanlansboy]

Yes there are people who abuse the system, but they are actually the minority. I'd suggest you walk a mile in someone's shoes before criticizing but even then I don't think you'd understand. As someMidTowner says, your opinion sickens me, but even so, I truly hope you never find yourself destitute and have someone like you look down their nose at you.[/

You people have no idea what I've been through, so don't speak about things you have no clue about. Not that it's anyone's business, but I've been through hell and back, twice with colon cancer, been on disability, could have easily went on welfare, but I have something these people don't, dignity and pride. I've learned the very hard way, there is no excuse to live on welfare, and frankly, it's people like yourself that allow it to continue, you enjoy paying a fortune in taxes? Good for you, but I do not.

 

[Hanlansboy]

Ignorance is blind

Well, it seems very few of you can understand what I'm saying, and that's fine, we don't have to agree on everything, but it's a shame, we will never fix our broken system as long as attitudes like yours exist. And by the way, I'm not say abolish welfare, but merely give only to those deserving, and for only a short period. Despite what has been said, it does cost us hundreds of millions a year, money that could be put to good use, for transit and infrastructure upkeep, instead it used to support and encourage laziness, and you think that's ok? Then don't complain when they raise taxes, TTC fares, and start road tolls. There little, as a private citizen, I can do to effect change, but I can at least acknowledge the issue destroying our ability to be a great city. If you hate what I've said so far, then you'll really hate this. The bleeding hearts cry "they'll turn to crime" if we cut welfare to chronic users, well then, it's quite simple, use the money wasted on welfare to increase the police presence in the city and upgrade the crumbling judicial system. If they choose a life of crime, they should expect to do hard labor in prison. It's a confounding issue, in a perfect world, I'd wish we could rehabilitate all of them, but until our laws change, it will only get worse, frankly, it just pisses me off when the decent, honest, hard working citizens of this city can't even sit in a park without constant harassment from these leeches. The law protects these delinquents, when it should be protects us, from them. Now that I've probably really ticked many of you off, I'll say no more on the issue, since you will probably never understand what I'm trying to say, if you found what I've said offensive, that was not my intent, but it seems many of you like supporting these people, the next time you get harassed relentlessly for spare change, think of this.

 

[someMidTowner]

Hanlansboy:
I sleep easier at night knowing that contributing tax dollars to the greater good helps people on social assistance, as well as helping people like you survive cancer.
Saying that these people should have to work through their hardships to get welfare money (many of them have disabilities and mental illnesses), is like some government tax man charging you extra taxes for the rest of your life to offset the cost of your cancer treatment. - Both are wrong
We all know you have been through a lot. You have made it clear and you have our sympathy - but your views are unacceptable in my opinion and you can rant and rave all you like about this "truth" or "reality" but it doesn't make it so.

 

[PinkLucy]

Yes there are people who abuse the system, but they are actually the minority. I'd suggest you walk a mile in someone's shoes before criticizing but even then I don't think you'd understand. As someMidTowner says, your opinion sickens me, but even so, I truly hope you never find yourself destitute and have someone like you look down their nose at you.[/

You people have no idea what I've been through, so don't speak about things you have no clue about. Not that it's anyone's business, but I've been through hell and back, twice with colon cancer, been on disability, could have easily went on welfare, but I have something these people don't, dignity and pride. I've learned the very hard way, there is no excuse to live on welfare, and frankly, it's people like yourself that allow it to continue, you enjoy paying a fortune in taxes? Good for you, but I do not.

You say not to judge you, but yet you judge everyone else. You have no idea what I or anyone else has been through. I have worked with welfare recipients in a variety of capacities for over 25 years, and I can tell you that many of them have plenty of dignity and pride, and I would far rather spend time with them than with someone like you. I have met many caring people and a few creeps, but I have also discovered that there are wonderful people and nasty people in all socioeconomic levels. Employment status doesn't make you a desirable member of society.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

hanlansboy:

You people have no idea what I've been through, so don't speak about things you have no clue about. Not that it's anyone's business, but I've been through hell and back, twice with colon cancer, been on disability, could have easily went on welfare, but I have something these people don't, dignity and pride. I've learned the very hard way, there is no excuse to live on welfare, and frankly, it's people like yourself that allow it to continue, you enjoy paying a fortune in taxes? Good for you, but I do not.

FYI, you aren't the only person on the forum who had rather personal experiences with cancer - and like everything else, one's mileage varies. So please, stop wearing it as a badge of honour to justify your opinion. It cheapens the disease and it cheapens the suffering of those touched by it. Besides, if I may be harsh, from a purely economic perspective I highly doubt that your job provided enough taxes to fund your multiyear, probably multi-hundred thousand dollars treatment. Your bravado and lack of appropriate compassion rings hollow from that view.

On that note, just what exactly does the current discussion has to do with casinos? It's reeking like the whole welfare mom getting beers nonsense. I would suggest sticking to topic at hand (i.e. casinos) or a heavier hand at moderation might be applied.

AoD

 

[TOperson]

There are two somewhat separate issues at play here. First, is it prudent to allow casinos/gambling from a socioeconomic perspective? Second, if we answer 'yes' to the first question, where should we locate these casinos?

I don't have a good answer to the first question. On a regional level, I'd imagine the benefits are outweighed by the costs in terms of problem gambling. More over, at least part of the economic/tax revenues would have been diverted from other entertainment venues. I'm also morally uncomfortable with a government encouraging activities it believes to be harmful in the interest of raising revenues; it's simply bad public finance to promote socially negative activities in order to raise money.

But as a Province we've clearly, if crassly, decided these things are good ideas. Once that decision's been made I dont see why putting one downtown is a bad idea. It's got the most supporting infrastructure.

I think you've touched on the core problem: there doesn't seem to be a way to get the benefits of a casino without also getting the drawbacks, and it's extremely difficult to get the genie back in the bottle.

The major benefits are supposed to be increased tax revenue, which can be achieved all kinds of ways that cause fewer problems. So why not choose another option? Also, Ontario has had casinos for over a decade now and they don't appear to have solved either provincial or municipal fiscal problems, they seem to be a mixed blessing at best. I expect the same will happen in Toronto.

 

[Hanlansboy]

Hanlansboy:
I sleep easier at night knowing that contributing tax dollars to the greater good helps people on social assistance, as well as helping people like you survive cancer.
Saying that these people should have to work through their hardships to get welfare money (many of them have disabilities and mental illnesses), is like some government tax man charging you extra taxes for the rest of your life to offset the cost of your cancer treatment. - Both are wrong
We all know you have been through a lot. You have made it clear and you have our sympathy - but your views are unacceptable in my opinion and you can rant and rave all you like about this "truth" or "reality" but it doesn't make it so.

Again, you're not hearing me, and I'm getting tired to repeating myself. I've already stated, several times, those who cannot work due to health issues, both physical or mental, should get all the social services they need to get well again, and please, don't mix Welfare and OHIP. I too pay my taxes, more then most, OHIP is a wonderful thing we are all entitled too, and yes, people take advantage of it too, but welfare is an entirely different matter. If only you could see what I've seen you might understand why I'm so passionate in my opinion about it, but, sigh.........don't think we will ever agree on this one. Just know that, despite how I sound, I'm not a cold hearted monster, and my true passion is for the welfare of the city I love (pardon the pun), lets just leave it at that, in closing, if I've offended any of you with my overly passionate posts, I am sorry, that was never my intent, but I've never been one to hold my tongue, and when we are talking about the city needing money, I have to say something, when so much is wrong. Ok, I'll shut up now, I've gone way off topic, back to the issue at hand, and have a pleasant day all

 

[someMidTowner]

Don't mix welfare and OHIP? why not? they are both government freebies for people in need
The people abusing welfare are ones that are working in secret while still receiving assistance.
Everyone else on welfare is just as entitled to those funds as anyone else is entitled to OHIP.
Saying that people who are on social assistance should be forced to work is hypocritical and a product of your lack of understanding of the greater situation.

 

[Hanlansboy]

You say not to judge you, but yet you judge everyone else. You have no idea what I or anyone else has been through. I have worked with welfare recipients in a variety of capacities for over 25 years, and I can tell you that many of them have plenty of dignity and pride, and I would far rather spend time with them than with someone like you. I have met many caring people and a few creeps, but I have also discovered that there are wonderful people and nasty people in all socioeconomic levels. Employment status doesn't make you a desirable member of society.

Please, if you're going to attempt to quote me, do so accurately, nowhere did tell you not to judge me, I said don't speak of things you have no clue about, referring to myself only. Do I judge others? Only those that are complete and utter frauds who milk our system for all they can. I really don't care how nice you say they are, and I know not all are frauds, but we have far more then our fair share......seems its pointless speaking any further, I'm sounding like a broken record, lets simply agree to disagree and leave it at that.