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OLG Toronto/GTA casino proposal (where to put it?)

Funny that the Unions are coming out in favour of this. The money will just get sucked from other hotels, venues, entertainment options. I see this as a zero-sum game.

Again, I am neither pro nor anti casino, but I don't understand this logic. Do things not "grow"....if the hotel/entertainment/tourist industry is a zero sum game...why have we allowed Trump/Four Seasons/Ritz/Shangri La to come to market and suck the money from established venues? Why would we ever approve a new restaurant if we were just going to suck money out of other restaurants? Why would any new tourist/entertainment facility be approved?

What is peculiar about a casino that makes it suck entertainment dollars from other entertainment options.
 
From todays Star:

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$3-billion casino plan unveiled for downtown Toronto



Oxford Properties Group announced plans Friday for a $3-billion redevelopment of the Metro Toronto Convention Centre on Front Street that would place a casino in the heart of downtown.

The 11-acre project would also include a hotel and residential units.

The casino would comprise less than 10 per cent of the project and would be funded, built and operated by a casino operator selected by the province, Oxford chief executive officer Blake Hutcheson said in a statement released Friday morning.

“If the decision is made to have a casino in the City of Toronto, Oxford believes it can provide the best location and the ideal solution for all stakeholders,†Hutcheson said.

The project would also add 5.5 acres of public parkland and 4,000 new parking stalls.

The proposal is contingent on the city’s support and the Ontario Lottery and Gaming Corporation operator selection process.

In July, the Star reported that Oxford was considering a massive entertainment-casino complex on Front Street.
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/art...ion-casino-plan-unveiled-for-downtown-toronto
 
For further discussion on the above MTCC multi-use proposal (including the casino) please see the P&C thread.

http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showth...onto-Convention-Centre-Redevelopment-(Oxford)

Speculation and debate on potential casino locations in general should remain here.

Quite frankly, if there's going to be a casino in Toronto, this makes sense to me. If they design/threaten to open a 500 seat theatre (the mid-size Mirvish and the culturati claim the city needs), it would also get Mirvish to construct his own (at the new development?) or we get that venue as part of a bigger project.

The convention centre could use a reno. Anything that moves it along benefits SO many other things...
 
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If a casino is going here in the city centre, city council should follow the example of Singapore and ban low-income and unemployed locals from gambling inside.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303753904577453201082532134.html
or
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/09/uk-singapore-casinos-idUSLNE86801D20120709


Obviously it's a huge financial hit for the casino (who wants these people), but it may heavily cut down on societal problems.

Why is this ban only appropriate if the casino is in the city centre?

Do we ban "them" from other wasteful spending?..........or do we put a bit of value on equal rights and personal freedom?

Up next......a ban on chewing gum!
 
This will be just like when the Natives discovered alcohol... right now you have to go out of your way to visit a casino, by putting it downtown, then you're shoving it in the face of a mostly young demographic
 
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This will be just like when the Natives discovered alcohol... right now you have to go out of your way to visit a casino, by putting it downtown, then you're shoving it in the face of a mostly young demographic

Does this mean that people in Niagara Falls, Windsor, Orillia, etc. Are smarter than Torontonians, or does it mean that the province does not care about them as they do for Torontonians.
 
Niagara Peninsula is mostly a retirement/leisure community... most people of working age don't stick around there, there are few jobs outside the agricultural/tourism/hospitality industries. Fallsview fits right in with the vineyards, spa's and rec trials.
 
Does this mean that people in Niagara Falls, Windsor, Orillia, etc. Are smarter than Torontonians, or does it mean that the province does not care about them as they do for Torontonians.

NF is a special case because it's a tourist destination.

All the other downtown casinos are in the "Canadian rust belt": Windsor, Brantford, Thunder Bay, etc. Places that have either dead and dying downtowns or dead and dying economies or both. Casinos aren't sited in those places because the provincial government doesn't care about them, they're there because local leaders leap at the chance, or any chance, for anything resembling "investment".
 
Rama is cottage country, it does make sense to have a casino there. When the economy booms people are buying cottages/secondary properties, retiring, spending weeks or months of summer up there or renting to friends and family and strangers. This is a place for people with wealth.

The only thing Windsor has going for it is the lower drinking age, 18-20 year old Americans flock across the border but youth bring little money to spend. I also can't imagine the crushing strength of the CAD$ is attracting many high rollers from the great lakes region.

Obviously an anecdote, but the Canadian "whales" I know don't have the slightest interest spending their $2 million/year poker budget in NF, Toronto and especially not Windsor. They want proper venues and get set up with free flights to Vegas. The climate in downtown Toronto is cold, there are no golf courses just a modest driving range at Polsen Pier, there is no place for kids to play, hotels & restaurants are overpriced and serve small selections and meager quantities of food, Hazleton Lanes has been in decline for years, the closest high-end retail experience besides Bloor St is a non-convenient day trip to Sherway Gardens or Yorkdale.

Downtown Toronto is mostly composed of young and working class people, look no further than the tenants at the Eaton Centre. People here don't have money to gamble, they are trying to advance careers, paying down mortgages or renting and saving. At MTCC they will just be busing in seniors from different area codes all day, don't think MGM raised concerns about transportation for no reason.

I'm fine with building a casino operated by OLG, I just think building the "largest" casino in the world right here is a lofty and egregious idea.
 
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This will be just like when the Natives discovered alcohol... right now you have to go out of your way to visit a casino, by putting it downtown, then you're shoving it in the face of a mostly young demographic

Depends on how it's programmed. After all, remember that casinos have traditionally been associated with a certain older-demographic vulgarity--this could well wind up as "out of sight, out of mind" to said demo as any tourist-trappy thing. Always remember: it isn't the likes of Dean Martin that made casinos cool, it's casinos that made the likes of Dean Martin square. And ditto with casino-circuit rockers like Herman's Hermits, the Moody Blues, Chicago et al.

Now, if one shoved a bunch of video lottery terminals into 10 Dundas Square, then we'd be talking about something different.
 
Downtown Toronto is mostly composed of young and working class people, look no further than the tenants at the Eaton Centre. People here don't have money to gamble, they are trying to advance careers, paying down mortgages or renting and saving. At MTCC they will just be busing in seniors from different area codes all day, don't think MGM raised concerns about transportation for no reason.

This is precisely why a ban for lower-income locals and the unemployed should make sense for this particular casino. No one's forcing people to go to casinos, but very nature of casinos (a 1-9 win-loss ratio for the slots in Ontario I believe), the accessibility of this casino and the fact that we'll be bombared with carefully tuned and directed advertising glossing over those facts means nothing but harm.

Sure, entertainment can be an argument, but people have been living fine in Toronto so far, and a casino will only add a trivial option at that. Why do we need one downtown if not only for tax dollars?
 
Seniors love casino's/vlts/bingo because they have a lot of free time, think of it as a social activity, and receive regular pension cheques. It's fair to say most jobs created today don't have pensions, don't have job security, unless that changes this business model is in trouble 1 or 2 generations from now.

Building only for tax dollars is a weak argument in favour, any business or residential project can pay property tax just the same. OLG winnings are already non-taxable. So if all we're getting is property tax and a little short term sec 37 funds, that's a raw deal for the city. The only way this makes sense is if the province/city directly profits from it and plows money back into infrastructure and other things we need. Exporting profits to Bermuda doesn't help Toronto.
 
Obviously Vaughan has already made up his mind, but he still raises several valid and points of concern.
Dear Residents,

Soon, City Council will be debating allowing a mega casino to be built in Toronto and casino lobbyists have their eyes on our waterfront.

Toronto and East York Community Council wants to hear from residents about their views on the potential location of a Casino in downtown Toronto. We have scheduled a special public consultation session and I hope you can attend:

Date: Wednesday October 10, 2012
Time: 6:00 pm
Location: Council Chambers, Toronto City Hall, 100 Queen St W

To register to speak, please contact the Clerk, Ros Dyers either by email teycc@toronto.ca or phone 416-392-7033.

There are a number of impacts to locating a casino in an established community. To read the staff report follow this link: 2012.TE18.55 - Zoning Status of Casinos in Toronto and East York District http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2012.TE18.55

Stand up for our city and act to stop a mega casino from being built in Toronto.
Join the No CASINO Toronto campaign! http://nocasinotoronto.com/take-action/


Why am I asking you to join the campaign?
Why am I asking you to come to City Hall?

Casinos are bad for cities.

Not convinced? Then check out what's happening in every corner of the continent. Google "No Casino" and see what comes up. Whether it's Vancouver or Miami, Manhattan, Gettysburg or Pawtucket, city after city, town after town, everyone seems to be fighting a casino proposal.

Now Google "Casino debt." Just as quickly, you find out why, from Nevada to Nantucket, from Windsor to Niagara, casinos all over North America are going broke. And when they fail, the cities they reside in fail too.

Like the compulsive gamblers they create, casinos all over the continent are losing big right now. Instead of walking away from their losses, they are upping the ante by trying to open new operations in more cities. What they are hoping to find is a new generation of gamblers to keep the house afloat. Let's keep Toronto as far away from this mess as possible.

There are good reasons to avoid a casino. The facts and experience of other municipalities make the case pretty clear. In Montreal, virtually 93% of the casino's revenue came straight out of the local economy (MacIasac 1994:38). This means that money bet at the casino wasn’t spent on clothes, rent or food locally, it was sent to the multi-national operator of the gambling facility. Money spent on dining and drinks wasn't spent in local bars or restaurants, it was also sent to the multi-national casino operators.

In Atlantic City, 40% of the bars and restaurants near the casino went bankrupt (Corelli, Memeth and Driedger, 1994b). St Louis had a similar experience. The most quoted expert economist, Earl Grinols of Baylor University, says that as economic drivers or job creators, casinos are "at best a wash, for every job created there is a job lost."

If the business case doesn't scare you, consider the impact on the city's quality of life. From a social perspective, crime goes up. Street crimes, fraud, loan sharking and prostitution rise when a casino comes to town. Before the casino, Atlantic City rarely made the top 50 list of crime-ridden cities. Since gambling came to town they almost always rank near the top.

Casinos are inward looking complexes. Windows are rare; food and drinks served cheap and on site to keep gamblers betting. The head of MGM, when talking to Toronto Council said that a casino requires one parking spot for every slot machine. 5000 are forecast in Toronto. Sound like your vision for the waterfront?

One study reports that property values close to a casino drop by about ten per cent. Based on the meagre amount the province shares with local municipalities, the drop in municipal tax revenue will likely outpace whatever cut of the take Toronto gets.

The casino industry isn't even contemplating paying market-value for public land. The head of MGM has said that if they got a deal on the land, the City could get a bigger slice of the take. This is coming from a company that's losing money hand over fist in Las Vegas right now.

Finally there is the impact on the folks who purport to enjoy gambling. A 2003 report by Earl Grinols calculates the social cost at $289 for every $46 of government revenue. That is over $6.00 in social cost for every $1.00 generated! While most of these costs are tied to crime, there is a significant impact on healthcare costs. Addicted gamblers cost a lot to cure, they often blaze a trail of financial ruin at work and home, and require treatment to manage their affliction. It's next to impossible to get this type of help in Toronto now. Manufacturing more problem gamblers will not help. Proximity to a casino is the most significant risk factor related to problem gambling.

Torontonians have considered this issue before and reached the right conclusion. The province is back again and talking up dreams of Celine Dion and Cirque du Soleil tents, conventions and luxury hotels. They won't produce a business plan, won't release the studies that support their case, won't tell us what the city's cut might be, and they have just passed legislation removing the requirement to hold a referendum on this issue.

Cynical as that might be, it's probably the only smart part of the proposal because it's clear that if it did go to a vote, Toronto would say no again. That you can bet on.

Want to find out more? Follow this link: http://nocasinotoronto.com/casino-facts/

Sincerely,

Adam Vaughan
 

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