OLG Toronto/GTA casino proposal (where to put it?)

[freshcutgrass]

It's an exciting time to be living in the T.Dot. If somebody doesn't like it, they should move to Toledo lol.

I have no idea why you keep insinuating that if you don't want a casino, you prefer Toronto to be unexciting, sleepy, boring town.

There's a gaping hole in our municipal and provincial finances. A casino is a benign and possibly positive method of filling the gap.

I think you are losing sight of what the government's job is. It's job is to regulate gambling...not promote it as a viable way to balance their budgets. This is fundamentally wrong, and it is too bad we have let them get away with it to get us to this point in the first place.

To those who object, please provide other suggestions. Something tells me that closing libraries will not be your second option.

Gambling revenues is a provincial scheme. Any casino revenue that might make its way into The City of Toronto coffers won't be enough to make any difference to the city's budget. In fact, when all things are factored in, it might even mean a net loss of revenues. Again, this is before any negative social ills are factored in.

Remember, all that discretionary money spent at a hypothetical casino is discretionary money that won't be spent buying theatre tickets, purchasing at retail stores, etc...all things that are far more beneficial to the city's economy and livability. Casinos don't put more money in people's pockets...it puts less. Casinos don't create anything outside of temporary construction jobs, and it's not like Toronto is lacking from a shortage of construction jobs.

FCG- you have a chip on your shoulder larger and more dense than any casino worldwide could possibly pay put so clearly you'll never be satisfied unless we turn the entire waterfront into a negative carbon Eco Village.

You must have me confused with someone else, or are just making things up...I have no such ideas.

 

[RC8]

Are you sure the city wouldn't get a sizable amount of revenue from the casino? Doesn't Niagara get a lot from theirs?

 

[MadMax]

I have no idea why you keep insinuating that if you don't want a casino, you prefer Toronto to be unexciting, sleepy, boring town.

Well, you did say you would rather see a park in our city rather than a casino as a "Gateway" to our city. Now if that isn't boring I don't know what is. How many parks does this city need? What we need is excitement Tackling our 16 billion dollar deficit is no walk in the park, pardon the pun.

 

[Ice_Burn]

Sorry, I didn't say our city needed them...I simply said that it was the next logical step in the evolution of our city. You can whine all you want about it, it doesn't change the fact that we are growing as a city...in every aspect, right before our eyes. It's an exciting time to be living in the T.Dot. If somebody doesn't like it, they should move to Toledo lol.

The next logical step in the evolution of our city is upgrading our infrastructure, especially transit, to handle things like casinos and aquariums. Our transit system and highways do not currently have the capacity for the volume of people that would be attracted to the casino. Our commute times are already the worst on the continent and getting worse. Adding a casino on the Ontario Place grounds is an INSANE idea - the area is not very well-connected to transit and you would be wasting waterfront property on a business that usually requires facilities with no windows (so the gamblers don't know how much time has gone by). That's what you're going to have overlooking Lake Ontario? A huge, windowless mass with a big parking structure outside? No thanks.

I'm not against casinos in general, but why not put it at Woodbine, which already has the space for this type of thing. Anyway, if you want the 'excitement' of the casino, please feel free to send me $100 and maybe I'll send some of it back to you (or maybe not!)

 

[freshcutgrass]

Well, you did say you would rather see a park in our city rather than a casino as a "Gateway" to our city.

No...I didn't say that.

Tackling our 16 billion dollar deficit is no walk in the park, pardon the pun

And casinos are not going to solve that problem. And supporting the government cop-out is a mistake on the part of the public.

Are you sure the city wouldn't get a sizable amount of revenue from the casino? Doesn't Niagara get a lot from theirs?

The City of Niagara Falls gets $2.6 million in revenues from the casinos. Even if a Toronto casino could draw the 8 or 9 million visitors that NF casinos do (or even more), it's obvious that these revenues would make almost zero difference to the city's budget of $12.2 billion (operational and capital). Factor in costs to the city in terms of increased policing, etc, and the loss in revenue from other businesses and attractions being poached by casinos, and the city could actually see a net loss from having a casino.

 

[MadMax]

^^ I agree with the transit issue, sometimes a catalyst is exactly what is needed to bring such ideas to reality. There is no easy solution but a casino is 4 or 5 years away...so we still have some time. I think peak times at casinos are from 10 pm to 2 am and weekends way busier than weekdays. Usually grannies and granpas are playing the slots from mornings to afternoon. The hard core gamblers are usually sleeping during the day and up till late at night. Weekends there will be a lot of tourists that would be checking out the activities in and around Ontario Place while also popping in for some craps, roulette, slots, poker, or blackjack. I think the casino has got to be huge with hotels, redtaurants, concert venues, etc.etc. Somebody mentioned a series of buildings instead of just one big casino which is also a good idea.

 

[RC8]

I take your point (freshcutgrass).

Don't you think that by building a casino on the exhibition grounds and turning the huge surface parking lots into mid-rise condos with retail at grade and nice looking 'warm' streets we could create a 'tourist-neighbourhood-destination' spawning through 8 or so blocks? Think West Don Lands but geared towards a crowd seeking entertainment. a Large square could accomodate the CNE and be used for parking whenever.

Of course we'd have to keep modernist nuts from having too much influence in the design if we don't want to end up with a slum, but such 'party' neighbourhoods exist all over the world and I think there might just be enough space in our city for one.

It would be a huge magnet for people all over Ontario much like Miami Beach is to people all over FL.

The more alternative crowd that keeps Queen st. alive won't bother with it, and so those parts of Toronto are pretty safe regardless.

 

[Ice_Burn]

^^ I agree with the transit issue, sometimes a catalyst is exactly what is needed to bring such ideas to reality. There is no easy solution but a casino is 4 or 5 years away...so we still have some time. I think peak times at casinos are from 10 pm to 2 am and weekends way busier than weekdays. Usually grannies and granpas are playing the slots from mornings to afternoon. The hard core gamblers are usually sleeping during the day and up till late at night. Weekends there will be a lot of tourists that would be checking out the activities in and around Ontario Place while also popping in for some craps, roulette, slots, poker, or blackjack. I think the casino has got to be huge with hotels, redtaurants, concert venues, etc.etc. Somebody mentioned a series of buildings instead of just one big casino which is also a good idea.

If a casino was five years away, they should've started planning transit links five years ago. You don't build a casino and only then figure out how people will get there.

 

[CN Tower]

The City of Niagara Falls gets $2.6 million in revenues from the casinos. Even if a Toronto casino could draw the 8 or 9 million visitors that NF casinos do (or even more), it's obvious that these revenues would make almost zero difference to the city's budget of $12.2 billion (operational and capital). Factor in costs to the city in terms of increased policing, etc, and the loss in revenue from other businesses and attractions being poached by casinos, and the city could actually see a net loss from having a casino.

FCG,

$2.6m in revenues??? From a casino. I call total BS man!

Commercial General 1.8257360% 1.5404080% 3.3661440%

Property taxes alone would probably be $35 million on a billion dollar project. You are so full of sh&t.

Initial billion+ construction and development revenue? Ongoing employment? C'mon man. There is no way your figures have any merit.

 

[CN Tower]

I take your point (freshcutgrass).

Don't you think that by building a casino on the exhibition grounds and turning the huge surface parking lots into mid-rise condos with retail at grade and nice looking 'warm' streets we could create a 'tourist-neighbourhood-destination' spawning through 8 or so blocks?

Hold on a sec there....not sure anyone wants to LIVE next to a casino but it sure could be a fun place to visit for entertainment and leisure!

 

[freshcutgrass]

Don't you think that by building a casino on the exhibition grounds and turning the huge surface parking lots into mid-rise condos with retail at grade and nice looking 'warm' streets we could create a 'tourist-neighbourhood-destination' spawning through 8 or so blocks?

No I don't.

But I'm willing to look at evidence where this fabulous "residential-casino" idea has worked elsewhere, if you can find such evidence.

I agree that Ex Place has reached a point where its function needs to be reconsidered, but I just don't understand why people buy into this whole "casino" business. It's kinda the last thing you think of when deciding to revitalize areas that need revitalizing. All evidence proves it doesn't.

 

[RC8]

Hold on a sec there....not sure anyone wants to LIVE next to a casino but it sure could be a fun place to visit for entertainment and leisure!

I don't think we should be building anything that people wouldn't want to live next to. Not so close to the core, anyway.

My only experience with a casino has been with that in Viña del Mar, Chile, which locals love and hold as a cultural institution (lectures of all kinds are hosted inside, hah). It's surrounded by a park, the sea, and a sea of condominiums owned by people who enjoy owning a home next to the casino and all the independent retail it attracts in the adjacent streets, as well as the sea! Crime and suicide rates are low, and the casino is highly profitable and a catalyst for local businesses. If this could be replicated in Toronto (not saying it could, cultural and other factors might get in the way), I wouldn't necessarily oppose it.

Here's a link to a bird's-eye view of the complex and its surroundings:

http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=casino...de+viña&cid=0,0,12587290889956863689&t=h&z=18

It's a beautiful walkable place to live, with nice parks, nice people, excellent restaurants, and next to the water. This picture shows all the development that the casino has brought to the area (the casino has been there since the 1930s):

Again, the whole thing might play out very differently in North America.

P.S. That street is the main throughway - the closest thing to a North-South highway in the area.

 

[Just_Chris]

Please check your facts before spreading misinformation. Google L.A. Casinos and Chicago casinos and you will see 6 of them in L.A. And 7 in Chicago. New York city just gave approval to a constitutional ammendnent that will allow seven non-Indian casinos to be built. Next time do a little research before commenting so obtusely.

No. NYC just gotten a "lottery terminal casino". The same thing we already have at Woodbine. They do not have, and have not approved actual table games.

Chicago and Los Angeles have casinos within driving distance, but none in the city proper. We already have casinos within driving distance.

 

[themarc]

James:

No doubt, but not all the tourists who visit Toronto will head to Niagara Falls or Rama. A well designed casino/entertainment complex should be aimed at that particular population.

AoD

In which case why bother building a Casino and just do what Vegas does and have slots in the airport terminals - but we could up them by having black jack and roulette too - see how I "upped the Ante" LOL?

 

[adma]

Toronto is going to be just fine with a new casino and you will all look back on this thread with a big chuckle and wonder why was this such a big deal anyway.

Okay, let's take the NYC comparison, and turn back time, 50 years ago.

"NYC is going to be just fine with a new Madison Square Garden and you will all look back on this thread with a big chuckle and wonder why was this such a big deal anyway. "