Officially Unofficial Metrolinx Regional Transportation Plan Thread

[EnviroTO]

Looking at Plan C it seems obvious to me that the loop line from Markam needs to connect back to Union station. That would complete a loop line from Union - Etobicoke Centre - Mississauga Centre - Pearson - Vaughan Centre - Langstaff - Markham Centre - Scarborough Centre - Union.

Looking at the orientation of rail in general it seems to me that the city should rezone the area around Midland and Progress to higher density office and residential to try and move the centre of development in Scarborough Centre gradually eastward. This would support a GO station south of Progress and north of Ellesmere and build on the planned future Progress subway station on the Sheppard Line.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Looking at Plan C it seems obvious to me that the loop line from Markam needs to connect back to Union station. That would complete a loop line from Union - Etobicoke Centre - Mississauga Centre - Pearson - Vaughan Centre - Langstaff - Markham Centre - Scarborough Centre - Union.

Looking at the orientation of rail in general it seems to me that the city should rezone the area around Midland and Progress to higher density office and residential to try and move the centre of development in Scarborough Centre gradually eastward. This would support a GO station south of Progress and north of Ellesmere and build on the planned future Progress subway station on the Sheppard Line.

That area is seen as a big future development zone, and if these transit lines are built, I'd be shocked if the sliver of industrial land between the Agincourt and STC secondary areas wasn't added to them and slowly redeveloped. Metrogate is just the first condo complex in the area...there's room for much more. There's been proposals for 11 condos and an office building west of Brimley along Progress but there's been no progress, partially because the city and the Ministry of Transportation were squabbling about an off-ramp for 5 years. Hopefully, we'll learn to prevent these kinds of squabbles.

 

[RedRocket191]

Hipster Duck already mentioned the S-Bahn on stilts on the 401 (as for the one on the 407, is it actually along the rail corridor just north of Steeles?). There's more express rail on 400 series highways than there is in rail corridors. Someone going from Markham to Vaughan seems to be given a choice between LRT, BRT, and express rail, all running parallel. You mention that express metro lines are likely, but who honestly needs them with all that express rail? Why not just use those resources to build more metro lines?

The 401 line will be an engineering challenge, but a conversation I had with the official who proposed it left me with the feeling that the only issue would be the accessibility of stations.

Deep in the report, it talks about having station spacing of 500 - 700 metres for LRT, 1 - 2 km for metro and 4 - 6 km for express rail. You are right, they are a lot of parallel lines up in York, but they each have their own purpose and will attract a different kind of customer making different kinds of trips.

Metrolink thinks a subway is appropriate for Sheppard and Eglinton, but they also think that most of the people heading from end-to-end on a subway line should be using a faster mode. The city wants close station spacing, so the best compromise is short station spacing with express branches.

When the day is done, the only difference between express rail and metro will likely be the logo on the side of the train. It will be subway-style trains at subway-style frequency. Its best to think of express rail and metro as cousins, each serving a different market.

The Scarborough RT is kept, of course...even in a $100B plan we can't afford to lose crucial Ellesmere station! Replacing the RT with a subway extension and LRT branching out from STC would be cheaper and would help many times as many people. Since the Eglinton metro only goes to Kennedy - it should go farther east - maybe the RT will be extended along Eglinton (if memory serves me correctly, isn't that what AreBe proposed years back?)...if so, it seems Eglinton will get ICTS to justify keeping the RT. And if so, why not just say so? Why the ambiguity? There's been a few fantasy maps posted on this forum that are just as expansive as the Metrolinx options, but they're not at all ambiguous, whether it be about the technology, the routes, the stations, anything.

I think an RT along Kennedy is a great idea, as does a future web of RT lines in the east end. As for what Eglinton will be, it will ultimately be decided during the individual EA.

Right now, Metrolinx is being careful with its wording because if you are very precise, there won't be any flexibility and you risk being legally tied to the idea. If you are too vague, you won't have the teeth to back yourself up when things go wrong.

There's a Finch East line that curves north at Kennedy (or Warden?) and curves west again at what looks like Major Mack. It's just thrown on there, almost thoughtlessly. Will it be a limited stop bus route, or will it be a multi-billion dollar LRT line...why is it there? I'd support a humongous plan like this if only to ensure a few of the best bits get built, but the average person almost certainly would not support a transit overkill. They'll want to know exactly where these lines are going and what they'll cost, at least to within an order of magnitude. There's a few other random orange lines in the suburbs, like the one meandering NE of the 401/427 interchange. Instead of these random "connectors," why not build these orange transit lines on equally or more suitable roads like Kipling, Lawrence, Wilson, Bathurst, Dufferin, Warden, etc.?

That finch east line merges into VIVA Green, which should be bursting at the seams when Markham Centre is occupied. Since BRT and LRT is under the same category, it may be one continuous line or it may be three or four distinct lines. The individual EA will decide. The line going from the Airport towards York U is part of the GO BRT, which was included in MoveOntario2020. None of them are really random - they are just unlabeled because all routings are tentative.

The red lines are all great (the ones in rail corridors, anyway), and so are the white ones (minus the RT...but the drl should be *the* DRL, and extended NE and NW while we're spending this much), but the orange lines are hit or miss (partially because the map makes them so mysterious).

I have a feeling that the idea with the DRL is to turn it into a branch of the Bloor-Danforth line, which every second train running Kipling to Kennedy via Downtown (or some such thing).

Oh, and I also noticed a RedRocket191's house express route

I had nothing to do with this, I swear!

 

[ShonTron]

The web of BRT/LRT in Durham Region is wild. The need for three east-west routes is crazy, Highway 2 is the only really logical higher-order corridor in all of Durham, with the possible exception of Simcoe Street from UOIT to the GO Station in Oshawa. Taunton and Highway 7 make little sense, as does Brock Road and Brock Street. Durham hasn't even figured out how to run a east-west bus along Bayly/Victoria, or to run services better than every 30-60 minutes. The last service changes were service cuts in that backwards region.

Peel, on the other hand, does great with regional rail and the Hurontario LRT, but only Dundas and Queen are east-west non-highway corridors, and Hurontario is the only north-south. Dixie Road is a very logical north-south corridor from Springdale to Lakeview/Long Branch, BT and MT run good service on this street. Erin Mills up from Clarkson and into Brampton isn't bad either.

I'd take option B, with the a la carte additions of regional rail into Brampton (stopping it at the airport makes no sense) and the DRL.

The Stouffville line to Mount Joy is such a great candidate for regional rail and that is ignored. In Brampton, Regional Rail really makes sense terminating at Mount Pleasant.

Also, the GTTA should force Caledon and Halton Hills to develop local transit, even if it's a contract arrangement with Brampton Transit. It should develop at least standards for regular bus routes, particularly in places where suburban transit is poor, not just rapid transit lines.

 

[RedRocket191]

From my conversations with my regional councillor, Caledon's approach to transit is "we would support a Peel Region Transit." I suppose its the same as saying "we would support unicorns, if you can find one." I posed the same questions to Halton Hills councillors, but they have not responded to date. Service standards are needed, and NIMBY cannot be an excuse anymore.

Out in Durham, Taunton is a designated higher order corridor in the region's eyes anyway, and Highway 7 already has 407 service operating on it. That BRT would likely be nothing more than increasing frequencies on this service.

Back in Peel, I have a feeling that additional lines in Mississauga were omitted because they are getting the VIVA treatment over the next few years anyway. Erin Mills, Britannia are confirmed if my memory serves me correctly, and Dixie is a likely candidate if it wasn't included. I can't explain why additional corridors in Brampton weren't included, but I suspect that its the same reason.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Even though the Metrolinx plans gather together lots of good previous proposals, they're just not more realistic or practical or thought out than what a dozen or more forumers could come up with in a weekend using MSPaint. If we're gonna spend $100 billion, downtown could actually use more transit...the plan is suburb heavy, and largely for the sake of connecting places with not one, but multiple routes. I'd slash back a good quarter of Option C and use the money to help people actually pay their fares.

An RT along Kennedy is not a good idea, not when there's a parallel GO line a 5 minute walk away (Kennedy crosses that GO line 3 times). Keeping the RT is not a good idea. The subway extension that would have replaced it was rejected because of "cost" even though the alternative was even more expensive, yet Metrolinx is proposing a $100B plan and there's still nothing in it to euthanise the RT?

Why would the Finch East line merge with Viva Green instead of running farther east? Cutting it off at Viva Green is truly random.

There's some overlap and overkill and arbitrariness in Option C...but if these lines make perfect sense to one guy on the Metrolinx board, that's all that will matter. If anyone has an issue with any part of the plan, Metrolinx can just say "this plan is for discussion purposes and it doesn't reflect alignments or technologies or land use or approved plans."

Does that 407 rail route turn down McCowan to get to STC? The Stouffville line only runs 8 times a day but even that frequency is enough to have killed several people at crossings - will the 407-STC line run in a tunnel, or behind barbed wire, or what? The Metrolinx plan is needlessly vague on some of its proposed lines, like the Steeles-Taunton "link," which would be fine as a Rocket bus (won't get much use east of Markham Road, though) but would be an obscene waste as LRT.

edit - oh, and like SeansTrans, I'd also take Option B, with the DRL, and with maximum service on all the GO lines. If possible, I'd also add GO service on the rail corridor north of Steeles, or through the hydro corridor north of Finch.

 

[allabootmatt]

You make an excellent point Scarberian...I think it's a bit silly to have to hold out for the gold-plated option in order to get *any* help for downtown, the most densely-populated and transit dependent place in the country. Basically they're proposing a new rapid transit ratio for the central city and suburbs of about 1:4.

 

[RedRocket191]

Why would the Finch East line merge with Viva Green instead of running farther east?

It doesn't have to, because::

"this plan is for discussion purposes and it doesn't reflect alignments or technologies or land use or approved plans."

There has been series talk about a route down McCowan recently, so it is quite possible that such an alignment will be used. At the same time, using the existing corridor is equally possible. Point is:

"this plan is for discussion purposes and it doesn't reflect alignments or technologies or land use or approved plans."

For the purpose of this discussion, assume BRT to include VIVA phase 1, GO bus and "rocket bus".

 

[EnviroTO]

You make an excellent point Scarberian...I think it's a bit silly to have to hold out for the gold-plated option in order to get *any* help for downtown, the most densely-populated and transit dependent place in the country. Basically they're proposing a new rapid transit ratio for the central city and suburbs of about 1:4.

I don't really worry about it because the fact is that after loading everyone on transit in the suburbs doing something downtown becomes mandatory. It simply isn't possible for all those people to arrive downtown without changes. People getting off a Don Mills LRT, Jane LRT, or Eglinton LRT will arrive at full trains. Any improvements anywhere in the system will push a certain portion of those into downtown Toronto.

 

[allabootmatt]

Yes but it's a question of timing; since the TTC seems to want to ignore warnings of what you're describing, by the time they start work in the centre--ie, once Transit City is done--it will be too late.

 

[Dan416]

I agree with Scarberian that the RT should be euthanized.

DRL should run through Union, not Queen, and should extend beyond B-D.

Finishing the Sheppard Subway and finally building the Eglinton Subway will just get us to the point we would have been at pre-Harris, so we're still catching up, and look at the growth of the city, so we're actually falling behind more and more each day the more we procrastinate building new subway lines.

That said I'm happy with Express Rail to places like MCC and Pearson (but preferably beyond both, through to Meadowvale and deeper into Brampton).

 

[Rainforest]

Rainforest

Running frequent rail services to Union is a great idea in principle, but in practice it will hit numerous constraints: capacity of Union, width of rail corridors, competition from freight trains, and nimbyism. Most likely, it will be implemented in part: selected routes will get a much improved service, perhaps every 20 or 15 min, yet nowhere near the subway frequency. Hence, Downtown Relief Line will be needed anyway. It should be in Plan B, perhaps even in A2.

Interlining DRL with the Bloor line would reduce the frequencies on both the DRL and the middle part of Bloor. This can be overcome by running complementary short-turn trains on both lines, but then the service management will become tricky. Rather, keep DRL as a completely independent service, but extend it beyond Bloor, to Eglinton.

Having both the Sheppard subway and the 401-rail link is redundant. Instead, the existing portion of Sheppard subway should become a part of 401-rail. Sheppard has an excellent interchange with Yonge subway. For any rail link that runs strictly on 401, building a good transfer point to Yonge will be a major challenge. Sheppard has it already. Reuse of the Don Mills terminal won’t hurt either. There is nothing wrong in using the subway-like gauge and rolling stock on 401-rail, even though that line (if built) will run at a higher speed, with longer stop spacing, and perhaps lower frequency than other Toronto’s subways.

Subway on Eglinton – perhaps, but only if the whole length is funded before the construction begins. Otherwise, we are at risk of getting another Stubway. If the full funding cannot be secured, then better go with continuous LRT as per Transit city. If it ever reaches capacity, build another LRT on Lawrence.

The STC – Markham – Vaughan – Pearson – MTC rail express looks like overkill, or at least a project for very distant future. Note that many of those centers would be connected by other express or rapid links, for example: Scarborough – 401-rail – Spadina subway – VCC.

Scarborough RT should be replaced … but this had been commented upon.

 

[urbanfan89]

Running frequent rail services to Union is a great idea in principle, but in practice it will hit numerous constraints: capacity of Union,

Many Via Rail trains sit at Union for hours at a time. I'm sure they could impose a strict limit on layover times (which would require increased funding for storage yards).

width of rail corridors,

European and Japanese cities have done amazing things with four or three or even two tracks. The Weston corridor could fit six or seven tracks and still have a bike trail.

competition from freight trains,

This is a biggie. We'll need to improve on the freight bypass around the core and somehow banish freight trains.

and nimbyism.

Almost none of it, other than Blue 22, which should be killed off for good.

Most likely, it will be implemented in part: selected routes will get a much improved service, perhaps every 20 or 15 min, yet nowhere near the subway frequency.

With the densities and infrastructure we have, we could get 15-minute frequencies among most lines (though trains to Seaton and Bolton will most likely be peak-hours only). The Lakeshore Line could receive a special express train that runs every, say, 20 minutes and stops in fewer places.

Hence, Downtown Relief Line will be needed anyway. It should be in Plan B, perhaps even in A2.

Regardless, a DRL will be necessary.

 

[RedRocket191]

To address some of the comments posted yesterday:

Automatic train control will help mitigate the reduction in headways that will result if they move to a two-branch Bloor-Danforth line. Short turns are also possible, but I think there will be a net benefit to customers overall.

The DRL to union service would be provided by express rail, which comes pretty close to the routing that has been discussed on this forum for the past few months or so. This service and the one I talked about above are not mutually exclusive.

A lot of the express rail lines in the suburbs are already running as GO bus routes with half-hour service or better all day, every day. It is completely possible that the first phase of these lines will be rail-compatible transitways.

SeanTrans' idea to "keep the trains moving" is an easy way to boost the capacity of Union Station. If every express rail and commuter train line going into union station is interlined with another line going out the other way, we'll be able to keep the trains moving and operate it like Union TTC station. All we'll need to do is upgrade the signals in order accommodate the increased frequency (and they are doing that).

 

[unimaginative2]

Red Rocket, regardless of how close headways can be with new signalling, there is absolutely no reason to have the highest frequencies on the outer portions of the line. Many lines in other cities branch, but at their outer termini, not downtown.