Next Mayor of Toronto?

[salsa]

I personally don't want to see Olivia Chow run, but rather see a center-right candidate take Ford out. I'm backing Karen Stintz as I think she would make a good fiscal conservative mayor for Toronto (and I think she'll run a very strong campaign. She already has some A+ staff on her team), but I really want to know if John Tory will actually jump into the race.

Stintz is anything but fiscal conservative. Her Scarborough vote grabbing stunt will cost this city over a billion dollars, in addition to the 1/2 million for ripping out the Jarvis bike lanes which she also voted for. These days, I'm wary of anyone that calls themselves a 'fiscal conservative', because it's an oxymoron: spend billions on silly pet projects, slash and burn anything else that's not important to them.

 

[nfitz]

Stintz is anything but fiscal conservative.

Freezing the TTC subsidy, then increasing it at a much lower rate than inflation, and saving the TTC money by cutting service on the busiest routes, and packing more people into each bus? And also increasing transit fares above the rate of inflation? The end result is that TTC subsidy per rider, which was already the smallest in North America ... got even smaller in the last 3 years.

Yes, she's a fiscal conservative. And I expect if she was mayor, we'd have less service, more crowding, and an even smaller subsidy for transit.

 

[44 North]

Stintz is anything but fiscal conservative. Her Scarborough vote grabbing stunt will cost this city over a billion dollars, in addition to the 1/2 million for ripping out the Jarvis bike lanes which she also voted for. These days, I'm wary of anyone that calls themselves a 'fiscal conservative', because it's an oxymoron: spend billions on silly pet projects, slash and burn anything else that's not important to them.

The Jarvis bike lanes had to go. I live downtown, and I cycle, but I also drive and am aware of the fact that Jarvis is a very important route into and out of downtown. And the Scarb Subway has some merits, particularly in that the SRT won't have to be shuttered for four years.

A politicians voting record on those two very specific issues isn't enough to label someone as not fiscal conservative.

 

[innsertnamehere]

scarborough has some very strong merits behind it, its not the sheppard 2.0 that people are making it out to be. Its the sort of place that is fine for building subway. Same with the Yonge Extension. I fully support the extension, but that doesn't mean that it was fiscally conservative either. Also, the TTC subsidy freeze is more of a mandate of the rest of council than it is hers.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

scarborough has some very strong merits behind it, its not the sheppard 2.0 that people are making it out to be. Its the sort of place that is fine for building subway. Same with the Yonge Extension. I fully support the extension, but that doesn't mean that it was fiscally conservative either. Also, the TTC subsidy freeze is more of a mandate of the rest of council than it is hers.

If the Scarborough Subway were in a vacuum, I'd fully support it as well. But the problem is that there are quite a few other priorities that should have been be addressed first, such as Relief Line to Eglinton, Crosstown to Pearson and perhaps the remaining Transit City lines. That $2 Billion extra we're spending could have been used towards financing the Relief Line to Eglinton, or finally delivering the Jane, Eglinton, Waterfront or Malvern transit lines to underserved areas of the city. Those all represent far more bang for the buck than the Scabrough subway. But instead, we're spending that $2 Billion to build something that doesn't add any additional transit to the city and that replaces a plan that would have done the job 99% as well at a fraction of the cost. Meanwhile, everyone else in the city who has no form of RT has just been given the middle finger because of Scarborough's apparent right to a subway.

The same though could be said about the Yonge Extension. I too absolutely support that project. Richmond hill does desperately need a subway. But not before capacity issues downstream on Yonge are addressed.

 

[SJD_Toronto]

scarborough has some very strong merits behind it, its not the sheppard 2.0 that people are making it out to be. Its the sort of place that is fine for building subway. Same with the Yonge Extension. I fully support the extension, but that doesn't mean that it was fiscally conservative either. Also, the TTC subsidy freeze is more of a mandate of the rest of council than it is hers.

This Bloor-Danforth extension into the heart of Scarborough really isn't as bad as some people make it out to be. You are completely right as this will not be another Sheppard Subway aka it's not like this subway will be a completely new line.

The Bloor-Danforth line already has strong ridership. The ridership at the Scarborough Centre station will be enough to help justify the extension. As for the Lawrence East and Sheppard East stations in terms of ridership, both stations will probably not have the highest numbers of riders, but that said, there are lots of stations on the Yonge-University line and the Bloor-Danforth line that don't have the highest rider numbers either. Even the subway extension into Vaughan isn't going to have the greatest numbers with the exception at the York University station.

Plus, like Karen Stintz has stated many times, with this extension there will be no transfer at Kennedy which is another boost for this subway plan. Another thing I think Stintz is right about is that city council has shown it is willing to use revenue tools for transit expansion in Toronto. No one wants to pay higher taxes, but The Big Move plan also needs to use revenue tools to pay for lots of new transit in the GTHA so if the province gets approval on revenue tools, we'll be paying higher in taxes anyway.

And the SRT does need to be replaced and if it can run while the subway extension is being built then that’s even better. The LRT plan had more stops, yes, but like what Stintz proposed in her OneCity transit plan, an eastbound BRT line can be built from the Scarborough Centre station.

What looks like a flip-flop from her still resulted in a plan to built rapid transit. Also remember that Stintz went from supporting Ford’s transit agenda to going back to Transit City wasn’t because she was power hungry; Ford didn’t have a plan to fund the Sheppard Subway (The private money he promised was all BS). She has said it wasn’t a question about subways vs LRTs – it was all about money, so when it came time to finally move with a transit plan, she did the fiscally right thing and got council to back the funded LRT plan. That was a necessary flip-flop. The decision to then take the planned Scarborough LRT plan and go with a subway plan is a flip flop on her part and it was ballsy move too, but at the end of the day rapid transit is being planned now to replace the SRT.

Stintz has also stated the Relief Subway Line is a top transit plan and this Bloor-Danforth extension helps push to get the relief line going sooner. I expect Stintz to make the relief line a major campaign issue.

And in my opinion, this subway plan will finally stop this ongoing debate about whether Scarborough “deserves” a subway or not. It's going to be a subway. Now people can stop begging for it.

It’s also my opinion that someone who is a center-right contender like Karen Stintz or even John Tory would be more well suited to move Toronto forward. That’s just me.

 

[salsa]

The Jarvis bike lanes had to go. I live downtown, and I cycle, but I also drive and am aware of the fact that Jarvis is a very important route into and out of downtown. And the Scarb Subway has some merits, particularly in that the SRT won't have to be shuttered for four years.

A politicians voting record on those two very specific issues isn't enough to label someone as not fiscal conservative.

Removing the bike lanes saved only 2 minutes for drivers, while endangering cyclists. Maybe they didn't make much sense in the first place, but I don't think wasting money on removing them is going to solve our traffic problem.

As for the subway, some people will agree with it and others won't. But there were two possible ways to deliver rapid transit to scarborough:
- LRT: fully paid for, shovel-ready, would serve a wider area, was preferred by experts
- Subway: costs a lot more (including sunk costs, operation + maintenance), takes longer to build, will be underused for decades, will have repercussions for the whole subway system, could jeopardize funding for the DRL, etc.

A real fiscal conservative would have picked the LRT because it was a much more affordable way to fulfill the needs of scarborough, while recognizing that there are much more pressing needs for our scarce transit funding. Stintz once supported the LRT plan, declaring it a victory for scarborough after wresting the transit agenda from mayor Ford. Then she had the balls to change it to a subway so that she can get a few more votes in the next election. Suddenly, Scarborough is a blighted no-where land, where only a subway could bring the prosperity than this downtrodden suburb "deserves". To make the subway look good, Stintz downplayed the extra cost, inflated ridership projections, made a big deal of the Kennedy transfer, and lied that the SRT shutdown would last 4 years (when Metrolinx always said it's 3 years or less). Watching that council debate was the worst thing ever. There were no facts whatsoever, only grievence-based transit planning. Seriously, if subways are supposedly much better than LRTs, then why does the pro-subway crowd have to be pathological liars?

I can totally see the advantages of the subway, but the way it came about was an ugly mess. In short, I will repeat that Karen is not a fiscal conservative. Taxpayers will foot the bill for many years to come. In my opinion, those "two very specific issues" (particularly the subway) is enough to label her what she truly is: a crass opportunist and serial flip-flopper.

Edit: I hope I didn't sound too harsh

 

[SJD_Toronto]

In short, I will repeat that Karen is not a fiscal conservative. Taxpayers will foot the bill for many years to come. In my opinion, those "two very specific issues" (particularly the subway) is enough to label her what she truly is: a crass opportunist and serial flip-flopper.

Edit: I hope I didn't sound too harsh

You don't sound to harsh as you are entitled to your opinion, but that said, you have to remember that if the province gets to approve of revenue tools to pay for more needed transit, we'll be forking over our own money to pay for it. That's the harsh reality.

 

[salsa]

You don't sound to harsh as you are entitled to your opinion, but that said, you have to remember that if the province gets to approve of revenue tools to pay for more needed transit, we'll be forking over our own money to pay for it. That's the harsh reality.

Yes I understand. All I ask is that our politicians have an honest debate about transit, and spend our money on the most pressing needs instead of their favourite pet projects. Anyway, the main point of my previous comment(s) was that Karen is not a real fiscal conservative, in my opinion.

Stintz has also stated the Relief Subway Line is a top transit plan and this Bloor-Danforth extension helps push to get the relief line going sooner. I expect Stintz to make the relief line a major campaign issue.

I would argue the opposite actually. The relief line was top priority when the LRT plan was well underway and fully funded. But now, the scarborough subway has become top priority and has taken everyone's attention. Extra money came from the feds and the city borrowed a billion dollars to pay for this and NOT the relief line.

Given how painful it was to get Torontonians to pay for the scarborough subway, what's going to happen when the time comes to pay for the 7 billion relief line? Are Torontonians in the mood for even more taxes and debt? Will Queens Park ask Toronto to pay 1/3rd? Will the Metrolinx revenue tools be implemented? Will the feds refuse to contribute because they already gave money for the scarborough subway? Will Tim Hudak get elected and pander to suburban voters and ignore downtown? I don't see how the scarborough subway is helping to advance the relief line at all, other than making a bad situation even worse (in terms of overcrowding).

 

[SJD_Toronto]

I would argue the opposite actually. The relief line was top priority when the LRT plan was well underway and fully funded. But now, the scarborough subway has become top priority and has taken everyone's attention. Extra money came from the feds and the city borrowed a billion dollars to pay for this and NOT the relief line.

Given how painful it was to get Torontonians to pay for the scarborough subway, what's going to happen when the time comes to pay for the 7 billion relief line? Are Torontonians in the mood for even more taxes and debt? Will Queens Park ask Toronto to pay 1/3rd? Will the Metrolinx revenue tools be implemented? Will the feds refuse to contribute because they already gave money for the scarborough subway? Will Tim Hudak get elected and pander to suburban voters and ignore downtown? I don't see how the scarborough subway is helping to advance the relief line at all, other than making a bad situation even worse (in terms of overcrowding).

Replacing the SRT was always been put forward before building the relief line. That's a fact. The Relief Line is still a top priority (it's in EA stages) and even Stintz had pushed for it to be moved up into the second phase of Metrolinx transit projects. Replacing the SRT is still in the first phase of transit projects that are happening now, except the technology has gone from LRT to subway. Yes, the LRT plan was a good plan (I do still like the LRT plan and if that was happening I would have been perfectly happy with it) for Scarborough. Yes, it would have suited the area fine, but a subway extension up to Sheppard Ave will be better for the long term. And the fact that the SRT can stay open while the subway is built is, in my mind, critical. But who is to say extra BRT and LRT lines can't be added into Scarborough later? Better rapid transit is coming. I don't like the idea of using my hard money to pay for this extension, but at least I know building a stronger subway and rapid transit system for Toronto is important. I wish I knew how the relief line will be completely funded. While you, like I, may not like the idea of handing over some cash for it, we will probably end up doing the same for the relief line. It will happen. Funding for it will be found one way or another with a mixture of all three levels of government again (Though, I have doubts the Feds will hand over the same amount of cash they did earlier this year). It will hurt to fork over some cash, but in the end, we will. At least we will be building more badly needed rapid transit.

And speaking of Tim Hudak, he and his party could be elected into power once we go into a provincial election (probably this coming spring), but it will be an uphill fight for them as he needs more ridings in Toronto to even get a minority government. At this point in time, I'm thinking we probably will end up with another minority Liberal government with Kathleen Wynne at the helm. If that happens, revenue tools will probably happen.

 

[salsa]

You raise some good points. At this point I accept that the Scarborough subway will be built, and I do see some of the benefits. I just wish the council debates weren't so stupid. And for the record, I'm more than happy to help pay for improved transit through taxes. As for Hudak, I don't think he will make much headway into Toronto next election, but Liberal ridings everywhere are slowly being chipped away by the opposition because of the recent scandals. Things are not Looking good.

 

[GenerationW]

I would argue the opposite actually. The relief line was top priority when the LRT plan was well underway and fully funded. But now, the scarborough subway has become top priority and has taken everyone's attention. Extra money came from the feds and the city borrowed a billion dollars to pay for this and NOT the relief line.

The relief line should have been top priority along with the SRT replacement when the province gave us $8 billion in 2009-10, but that didn't stop those in charge at the time, or Ford afterward, from totally ignoring it.

Given how painful it was to get Torontonians to pay for the scarborough subway, what's going to happen when the time comes to pay for the 7 billion relief line? Are Torontonians in the mood for even more taxes and debt? Will Queens Park ask Toronto to pay 1/3rd? Will the Metrolinx revenue tools be implemented? Will the feds refuse to contribute because they already gave money for the scarborough subway? Will Tim Hudak get elected and pander to suburban voters and ignore downtown? I don't see how the scarborough subway is helping to advance the relief line at all, other than making a bad situation even worse (in terms of overcrowding).

Why don't you ask some of those questions to the City Councilors whose wards are where the relief line is supposed to go through? Maybe if they supported the relief line to the extent that Scarborough (and other) Councilors are backing the B-D extension, we'd be building it.

City Council can say anything is our #1 priority, but until the political will is there, they'll just delay/study/delay/study.

 

[innsertnamehere]

DRL is supposed to come from the transit taxes.


The problem with the Scarborough subway is that the SRT needs replacement, no matter how high a priority other lines are. They have to replace it, so may as well do it right with a subway. the demand is there, (same projected ridership as the DRL) and it is needed. commute times from the hinterlands of Scarborough are insane, between this and the Sheppard LRT you will actually be able to get downtown in less than an hour on the TTC.

DRL will hopefully get funding this spring, along with $27 billion in other projects.


What I find interesting is if the transit taxes pass, how will the mayoral candidates react? will they say "ok thats enough transit expansion, time to focus our money on other pressing issues", or will they say "we need more transit to combat gridlock on top of all this, lets build these projects as well", despite the subway network increasing in size by 52% (36km) and having 40km of LRT coming in?

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

I hope the rhetoric isn't suburbs vs downtown when it comes to transit. I want to see the Waterfront LRT be given attention after the DRL gains its funding, and I would be disappointed to see talks be deflected because "Downtown is already getting a subway".

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Insert: Judging by Stintz's OneCity plan, I'm expecting at least her to propose additional revenue tools for Toronto. I also expect to see something similar from Chow.

What I'm really interested in is seeing some innovative revenue ideas. Not just new taxes/tolls (they'll still be needed). Maybe a municipal auto insurance corp, as has been previously proposed.