innsertnamehere
Superstar
thats not under the funding plan. (eglinton to the airport)
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New Transit Funding Sources
- Thread starter denfromoakvillemilton
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denfromoakvillemilton
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Thanks.
BurlOak
Senior Member
It seems this adds almost nothing to the transit debate that has not been shown before. It is just a way of the government trying to get an Agency to take the edge of the political decision of how to fund transit. I hope they didn't pay too much for this report!
ssiguy2
Senior Member
Surprise, another transit report for Toronto.
Toronto's transit maybe lacking but it's ability to whip out new reports every 6 months is the stuff that legends are made of.
This was the asy part as it required Torontonians and her politicians to do absolutely nothing, now the real work begins and something tells me this is going to collect dust at City Hall and the City will just revert back to it's tried and true method of screaming poverty and demanding Queen's Park pay for everything.
Toronto's transit maybe lacking but it's ability to whip out new reports every 6 months is the stuff that legends are made of.
This was the asy part as it required Torontonians and her politicians to do absolutely nothing, now the real work begins and something tells me this is going to collect dust at City Hall and the City will just revert back to it's tried and true method of screaming poverty and demanding Queen's Park pay for everything.
nfitz
Superstar
You do realise that this report is nothing to do with the city, right? And it's not for funding the City's transit, but the entire region?
denfromoakvillemilton
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SSI this will happen one way or the other. If Toronto voters reject this the big business will rejected them with their money and feet.
JayBeeGooner
Active Member
Your hatred for Toronto is blinding you to the fact Metrolinx(provincial agency) put out the report as a discussion on how to fund the Regional Big Move plan for the GTHA.
Your criticism of Toronto is bordering on trolling. It
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
I am not sure whether I am more surprised by a transit report every 6 months, or a comment about that every 6 days. At least the former contextualizes and help spark public debate over funding...not sure what complaining about the fact that reports are written will do, other than reinforcing a sense of impotence and cynicism that is utterly unhelpful.
Incidentally, guess which "bunch" of citizens and their reps are screaming the loudest about maintaining the status quo? Isn't it the slightest bit interesting the correlation between who wanted subways first and foremost and those who are least willing to pay for transit improvements?
AoD
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Electrify
Senior Member
As I've said, subways are nothing but trojan horses from the scheming right to the gullible. They don't want to see ANYTHING built, except perhaps a new expressway, but they know that will never happen. If these people really cared about fiscal responsibility and public transportation, they would have lobbied for true LRT rather than the Euro-styled tramways instead of subways paid for by fairies and the private sector.
BurlOak
Senior Member
If you actually want public support for transit funding, I think the LRT plan (Eglinton, Sheppard, Finch) will have to be changed. The other option is to implement the new tax, continue with LRT, and have it all cancelled at the next election.
You could probably not get Ford's support, but the majority would probably favour cancelling Sheppard and Finch, grade-separating Eglinton, and building the DRL.
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...-dont-use-them-to-subsidizing-public-transit/
Kind of a puzzling argument. He has the road pricing part of it right, and he's right that it would shift demand. Where it falls apart is the 2nd half of his argument is predicated on the assumption that the current rapid transit network is sufficient enough to absorb the increased demand that the introduction of road pricing would surely cause. It most certainly is not.
Therefore, if road pricing is successful in shifting demand, it will be shifting it onto an alternative that is in no state to accept that increased demand. If you're going to try to shift demand, you should first make sure that what you're trying to shift it onto can at least handle it.
His entire argument of "subsidizing transit" is flawed. Our society has subsidized highway construction for over 60 years, and has severely neglected alternative networks during that time. Using road pricing revenue to pay for transit isn't subsidizing it, it's playing catch-up for the over half century of neglect it has endured in favour of highways.
Kind of a puzzling argument. He has the road pricing part of it right, and he's right that it would shift demand. Where it falls apart is the 2nd half of his argument is predicated on the assumption that the current rapid transit network is sufficient enough to absorb the increased demand that the introduction of road pricing would surely cause. It most certainly is not.
Therefore, if road pricing is successful in shifting demand, it will be shifting it onto an alternative that is in no state to accept that increased demand. If you're going to try to shift demand, you should first make sure that what you're trying to shift it onto can at least handle it.
His entire argument of "subsidizing transit" is flawed. Our society has subsidized highway construction for over 60 years, and has severely neglected alternative networks during that time. Using road pricing revenue to pay for transit isn't subsidizing it, it's playing catch-up for the over half century of neglect it has endured in favour of highways.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
I know I sound like a tad pessimistic but if history is any lesson, there will be a lot of debate but precious little will be done. I hope I'm wrong, I really do, but I still don't think that most Torontonians believe they should be paying for their own transit infrastructure.
Torontonians know that their transportation system is a mess an woefully inadequate but that hasn't resulted in any change so far. You can try to blame it on Ford and some of that would be justified but the problems started well before he got there.
I think Metrolinx will have a hard time trying to successfully convince the taxpayers to cough up due to this disconnection between paying and getting. Part of the problem thou is very much the making of the TTC and Metrolinx themselves. People have become so use to new transit reports in Toronto resulting in nothing that I think there is a very strong belief out there that giving Metrolinx/TTC their hard earned tax dollars won't result in any substantial improvements and very few within the next 10 years. Metrolinx/TTC record of bringing things in on time and on budget are deplorable. Transit infrastructure in Toronto seems to take twice as long and cost twice as much as everywhere else.
BurlOak also has a good point.
If people are going to be paying thru the nose for transit improvements they will want a lot more than just some sreetcar ROW which won't make a dent in their transit trip times. If they are going to have to fork over billions then they will demand first class transit infrastructure. Miller stated when announcing TC {which seems like a lifetime ago} that LRT was the only option for Toronto because it couldn't afford subway system. He knows everyone wants subways but couldn't get them due to costing too much. If they get their taxes and billions then that excuse evaporates and the push to build nothing but grade separated transit will be on.
If Metrolinx wants the citizenry to back tens of billions in new taxes then those same people will want top notch transit for their contribution and they will not accept vague guarantees from Metrolinx that they will get it "sometime soon" but rather real plan of first class transit on firm timetables and firm budgets.
Torontonians know that their transportation system is a mess an woefully inadequate but that hasn't resulted in any change so far. You can try to blame it on Ford and some of that would be justified but the problems started well before he got there.
I think Metrolinx will have a hard time trying to successfully convince the taxpayers to cough up due to this disconnection between paying and getting. Part of the problem thou is very much the making of the TTC and Metrolinx themselves. People have become so use to new transit reports in Toronto resulting in nothing that I think there is a very strong belief out there that giving Metrolinx/TTC their hard earned tax dollars won't result in any substantial improvements and very few within the next 10 years. Metrolinx/TTC record of bringing things in on time and on budget are deplorable. Transit infrastructure in Toronto seems to take twice as long and cost twice as much as everywhere else.
BurlOak also has a good point.
If people are going to be paying thru the nose for transit improvements they will want a lot more than just some sreetcar ROW which won't make a dent in their transit trip times. If they are going to have to fork over billions then they will demand first class transit infrastructure. Miller stated when announcing TC {which seems like a lifetime ago} that LRT was the only option for Toronto because it couldn't afford subway system. He knows everyone wants subways but couldn't get them due to costing too much. If they get their taxes and billions then that excuse evaporates and the push to build nothing but grade separated transit will be on.
If Metrolinx wants the citizenry to back tens of billions in new taxes then those same people will want top notch transit for their contribution and they will not accept vague guarantees from Metrolinx that they will get it "sometime soon" but rather real plan of first class transit on firm timetables and firm budgets.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
You sound pessimistic? You are always pessimistic. I have yet to read a single post of yours that is positive, or lacks some insult to Toronto's transit system. Toronto's transit is not that bad, and you need reports to move forward.. You can't implement a tax without knowing what that tax should be.
denfromoakvillemilton
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Honestly I think it is that bad talking to many people. Plus history shows petty politics always comes ahead in T-dot. But I agree that we need to know what we are doing, but we can't stall this time. I dislike the fact the SELRT starts in 2015 and not this year, for example.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
I blame Provincial politics more than politics down at City Hall. Believe it or not City Council isn't completely incompetent on transit issues. The great subway vs. LRT debate of yesteryear demonstrated that Council can indeed come to a logical and informed decision on transit issues even when under huge political pressure. I have near full faith in Council to make the proper decisions on transit issues such as the DRL.
What Toronto needs to do is implement a series of permanent, Toronto exclusive transit funding tools. That way the City of Toronto alone will control its transit destiny. No longer depending on Ontario for transit. If this happened, there would be near zero threat of projects like the FWLRT and SELRT being canceled, even if Ford were to win reelection.