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New Transit Funding Sources

gweed123 said:
The immediate plan is to try and implement what's left of the First Wave projects, and then implement the Next Wave projects (Yonge extension, DRL, Hurontario LRT, etc). Eventually this revenue will end up funding a substantial part of the 25 year plan.

Of course, the extra benefit that this adds is that projects can proceed through the pipeline without the worrying question of "will there be funding waiting for us at the end?" Because now, for projects like the Yonge extension, the answer is no.

But if that revenue stream is there, and barring some major political shifts will continue to be there, that just takes one worry out of the project planning.

Question though: Does anybody know if the Next Wave projects include the unfinished portions of the 4 priority Transit City lines? I mean Finch West from Finch West Stn to Yonge, SLRT extension to Malvern, Sheppard east to Meadowvale, and Eglinton LRT to Pearson? Or have those all been deferred indefinitely behind the Next Wave projects?
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Sorry, my question was is the plan to implement all of those revenue tools at once? (someone summed up the BofT document and said that we could generate $4B a year.....but only if you did them all...I thought they were looking for the right mix/balance...not suggesting that all of those be implemented for a $4B a year figure......if they were all implemented and $4B a year was raised...the entire big move would be paid for in 12.5 years!).
 
TOareaFan said:
Sorry, my question was is the plan to implement all of those revenue tools at once? (someone summed up the BofT document and said that we could generate $4B a year.....but only if you did them all...I thought they were looking for the right mix/balance...not suggesting that all of those be implemented for a $4B a year figure......if they were all implemented and $4B a year was raised...the entire big move would be paid for in 12.5 years!).
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Which would be fantastic. hell another three years and they could get service to peterborough on the havelock sub and pickering airport built.
 
gweed123 said:
The immediate plan is to try and implement what's left of the First Wave projects, and then implement the Next Wave projects (Yonge extension, DRL, Hurontario LRT, etc). Eventually this revenue will end up funding a substantial part of the 25 year plan.

Of course, the extra benefit that this adds is that projects can proceed through the pipeline without the worrying question of "will there be funding waiting for us at the end?" Because now, for projects like the Yonge extension, the answer is no.

But if that revenue stream is there, and barring some major political shifts will continue to be there, that just takes one worry out of the project planning.

Question though: Does anybody know if the Next Wave projects include the unfinished portions of the 4 priority Transit City lines? I mean Finch West from Finch West Stn to Yonge, SLRT extension to Malvern, Sheppard east to Meadowvale, and Eglinton LRT to Pearson? Or have those all been deferred indefinitely behind the Next Wave projects?
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Yes the rest of the tranist city lines are next wave. It's Jane, Don Mills, Malvern that are on the back burner.
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
Which would be fantastic. hell another three years and they could get service to peterborough on the havelock sub and pickering airport built.
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Sure....but, again, I don't think the BofT is saying "let's do them all"....they are saying, "here are the most likely revenue tools and their yield....which one(s) should we implement".
 
TOareaFan said:
Sorry, my question was is the plan to implement all of those revenue tools at once? (someone summed up the BofT document and said that we could generate $4B a year.....but only if you did them all...I thought they were looking for the right mix/balance...not suggesting that all of those be implemented for a $4B a year figure......if they were all implemented and $4B a year was raised...the entire big move would be paid for in 12.5 years!).
Click to expand...

I believe the magic number was $2 billion/year. So yes, most likely it would only be a couple of those. My guess would be the sales tax, the parking space levee, and the HOT lanes.

Although for future HOT lanes, I would like to see them be 2 lanes instead of just 1, that way you could have an "express" HOT lane, and a "merging" HOT lane, because during rush hour the entire HOV lane comes to a stop at every merge with the regular lanes, because the regular lanes are going significantly slower than the HOV lanes.

2 lanes would also boost the capacity of the HOT lanes significantly, meaning more revenue.
 
gweed123 said:
I believe the magic number was $2 billion/year. So yes, most likely it would only be a couple of those. My guess would be the sales tax, the parking space levee, and the HOT lanes.

Although for future HOT lanes, I would like to see them be 2 lanes instead of just 1, that way you could have an "express" HOT lane, and a "merging" HOT lane, because during rush hour the entire HOV lane comes to a stop at every merge with the regular lanes, because the regular lanes are going significantly slower than the HOV lanes.

2 lanes would also boost the capacity of the HOT lanes significantly, meaning more revenue.
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Can we have two lanes in most places? Is there the space? Does the revenue produced ($25 - $40 million/year) justify the expense of building more lanes?
 
TOareaFan said:
Can we have two lanes in most places? Is there the space? Does the revenue produced ($25 - $40 million/year) justify the expense of building more lanes?
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If widenings are taking place in some areas, and if there's room to do so, do it. For example, the 401 between Milton and the 407. The plan there is to add in an HOV lane. I would suggest it would make sense to add in 2 there, because there's room. Even if they take away what was planned as a general traffic addition in favour of an HOV lane.

But of course, on areas like the QEW/403 where they just finished a 3 year widening project, obviously it doesn't make sense to go through all of that again.

And of course, I still believe that the best solution is to just make all of the 401 Express lanes HOT lanes. That would even be easier to monitor than non-separated HOT lanes.
 
nfitz said:
Perhaps because car drivers benefit so much already from city services, without contributing anything. Free roads, signals, etc, for which the city collects nothing from car drivers or gas taxes.

Personally, as a car driver, I'd love to pay a lot more money for transit, because I know that I, as a driver will benefit. Especially if it means road tolls, and making the roads easier to drive on.

Though I use transit as well ... as do most car owners I know who live here.
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A different answer is: when people switch from driving to transit, the highway commute will get better and faster. So putting a toll on the expressways will BENEFIT drivers. Spending money on transit will also benefit drivers (though not as much as it benefits riders of course).

But I agree with spider. Leftwingers are dumb to talk about tolling highways to pay for transit. They should talk about tolling highways to reduce property taxes (and -- ssh! -- stick it the 905ers!) Then we can talk about raising other taxes to pay for transit.
 
how are they going to know if the car in the HOV lane has more then one person. How will they know which cars to toll? I too would agree that at minimal there should be two lanes that are HOV TOLL lanes.... Even if it takes away another lane of highway for some drivers. Steve Munro seems to have a major problem ethically with this as some rich people would be able to get away with driving faster and it would be unfair. Truthfully there is no way to make the world fair and there is a reality that some people with money get things faster and easier then others. For instance the express pass at wonderland. Or how some people can afford to take GO while others have to endure longer rides on the TTC just to save some money. It is what it is... Anyways im good with two lanes everywhere of TOLLS and I cant think of how in the world those HOV lanes are going to remain. Instead I think they will dissappear as there is no way to track which cars have more then one occupant.
 
sixrings said:
how are they going to know if the car in the HOV lane has more then one person. How will they know which cars to toll? I too would agree that at minimal there should be two lanes that are HOV TOLL lanes.... Even if it takes away another lane of highway for some drivers. Steve Munro seems to have a major problem ethically with this as some rich people would be able to get away with driving faster and it would be unfair. Truthfully there is no way to make the world fair and there is a reality that some people with money get things faster and easier then others. For instance the express pass at wonderland. Or how some people can afford to take GO while others have to endure longer rides on the TTC just to save some money. It is what it is... Anyways im good with two lanes everywhere of TOLLS and I cant think of how in the world those HOV lanes are going to remain. Instead I think they will dissappear as there is no way to track which cars have more then one occupant.
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From Wikipedia: "In the Los Angeles Metro ExpressLanes HOT system, special "switchable" transponders are used on which the driver of a vehicle indicates the number of occupants (including him or herself) by setting a switch on the transponder. Based on the setting of this switch, the electronic toll collection system automatically determines whether or not a toll should be charged, also taking into account variable HOV restrictions (such as HOV being considered three or more occupants during peak hours and two or more occupants at all other times).[6][7] For enforcement, a beacon light near the receiver lights when a transponder is scanned. The light indicates to highway patrol officers the setting of the occupancy switch of a car's transponder, and the car can then be visually checked to see if there are more or less people in the car than indicated on the transponder.[8]

The HOT lanes concept is an expansion of HOV lanes that allows single-occupant vehicles to also use the lanes, by paying a toll and thus generating a profit. Proponents claim that all motorists will benefit from HOT lanes, even those who choose not to use them. This argument only applies to projects that increase the total number of lanes.[9] Proponents also claim that HOT lanes provide an incentive to use transit and ride sharing."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Switchable_FasTrak_transponder.jpg
 
just came back from driving to indiana... Anyways on the 900km drive there I must have passed a dozen cop cars each way. All were speed traps. Anyways I drive to Ottawa monthly and I pass only 1 car each way over 500kms. If the roads are patrolled better everyone is going to have that setting on single occupancy. Where as when I drove in the states I was scared to drive more then 10miles over the limit.
 
sixrings said:
just came back from driving to indiana... Anyways on the 900km drive there I must have passed a dozen cop cars each way. All were speed traps. Anyways I drive to Ottawa monthly and I pass only 1 car each way over 500kms. If the roads are patrolled better everyone is going to have that setting on single occupancy. Where as when I drove in the states I was scared to drive more then 10miles over the limit.
Click to expand...

For HOT lanes, enforcement can also be done remotely. For example, when a car passes by a transponder reader and it registers as having 2 people in the vehicle, the cameras a few metres down the road can snap a picture of the inside of the car, to see if there's actually a 2nd person in the car. If the picture shows conclusively that there's no one in the passenger seat or in the back seats, dispatch a nearby officer to pull them over.

A combination of electronic and human enforcement will be more effective than they would be separately.

EDIT: I also think these transponders should be linked to a person's Presto account, so that it can be used for payments at GO parking lots. It would also mean that every driver using these lanes would have a Presto card and account, so they may be more willing to try taking transit, because they already have the card.
 
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