New Transit Funding Sources

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Yes the rest of the tranist city lines are next wave. It's Jane, Don Mills, Malvern that are on the back burner.

That's what I figured, haha. Just wanted to make sure.

Sure....but, again, I don't think the BofT is saying "let's do them all"....they are saying, "here are the most likely revenue tools and their yield....which one(s) should we implement".

I think they have too. If they don't, we will keep falling behind.

I don't believe the remaining sections of Finch, Eglinton, Sheppard and the SRT are covered in the next wave,

http://www.bigmove.ca/what-were-building/the-next-wave

Those aren't all the projects. The Young extension has not even been approved and the DRL is a priority project now.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I don't believe the remaining sections of Finch, Eglinton, Sheppard and the SRT are covered in the next wave,

http://www.bigmove.ca/what-were-building/the-next-wave

they aren't, and will be something that the city would have to fund if they wanted them any time soon. and quite frankly, all but the eglinton extension are relatively small projects that could be funded over time with the huge chunk of change the city will be receiving from the 25% number. what I would like toronto to fund with those funds is:

1. Viva style BRT light on the busiest routes, this could likely be done with around a years worth of funding
2.queens quay streetcar extension, this is a key portion of the don lands but is expensive as hell at around $400 million. the bullet must be bitten though, and get done with. probably 2 or 3 years worth of funding for this.
3. Finch east LRT, a key missing connector in northern crosstown travel, a "missing Link", and will likely cost around $500 million. probably 4-5 years of funding then.
4. Malvern extension, probably $300 million, around 2 years of funding
5. widening of the DVP over the 401, and other highway chokepoints. reconstruct a lot of the Gardiner/DVP, and make it at least look slightly comparible to the 404/QEW that feeds into them. probably 1-2 years of funding
6. dig a one way southbound tunnel from the Allen to bathurst to alleviate congestion probably 2-3 years of funding

total time: 12-16 years

At this point a Lot of the transit problems would be fixed. I would suggest stretching the timeline out by a couple of years to allow for new cycling and pedestrian infrastructure, especially lots of new cut through paths to make the main concessions more accessible from cul de sacs.


note: I am basing my timing estimates on the fact that Toronto would get around 1/3 of the 25% of Metrolinx funding, or around $170 million a year.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

they aren't, and will be something that the city would have to fund if they wanted them any time soon. and quite frankly, all but the eglinton extension are relatively small projects that could be funded over time with the huge chunk of change the city will be receiving from the 25% number. what I would like toronto to fund with those funds is:

1. Viva style BRT light on the busiest routes, this could likely be done with around a years worth of funding
2.queens quay streetcar extension, this is a key portion of the don lands but is expensive as hell at around $400 million. the bullet must be bitten though, and get done with. probably 2 or 3 years worth of funding for this.
3. Finch east LRT, a key missing connector in northern crosstown travel, a "missing Link", and will likely cost around $500 million. probably 4-5 years of funding then.
4. Malvern extension, probably $300 million, around 2 years of funding
5. widening of the DVP over the 401, and other highway chokepoints. reconstruct a lot of the Gardiner/DVP, and make it at least look slightly comparible to the 404/QEW that feeds into them. probably 1-2 years of funding
6. dig a one way southbound tunnel from the Allen to bathurst to alleviate congestion probably 2-3 years of funding

total time: 12-16 years

At this point a Lot of the transit problems would be fixed. I would suggest stretching the timeline out by a couple of years to allow for new cycling and pedestrian infrastructure, especially lots of new cut through paths to make the main concessions more accessible from cul de sacs.


note: I am basing my timing estimates on the fact that Toronto would get around 1/3 of the 25% of Metrolinx funding, or around $170 million a year.

I thought Eglinton was going to the airport right after 2020 when the crosstown is completed?

 

[diminutive]

CBC: Ontario NDP leader rejects Board of Trade transit proposal

Ontario NDP leader Andrea Horwath rejected a Toronto Board of Trade proposal to help relieve the city's gridlock problem — including new taxes and a parking levy — saying the measures were not "fair and balanced".

Horwath added that the Toronto Board of Trade's recommendations were simply shifting the cost of transit improvements to "everyday folks" and instead proposed that the province should close "huge corporate tax loopholes" to generate the cash.

"I've said all along that the solutions have to be found, but when the solutions are simply putting the burden of the costs on families who are already struggling, I'm concerned," she told CBC's Metro Morning.

Kinda stupid. No way 'corporate tax loopholes,' whatever that means, would generate 1.3b. Even if it did, that would be prorated over the entire province.

 

[ssiguy2]

No kidding.

Again, saddle all Ontarians with Toronto's transit funding problems.

Also new taxes {suchas gas} and parking levies not only encourage those who are driving to take transit but is far in that it is a transportation tax going towards transportation problems. With a "corporate tax cut", the money will flow directly to Queen's Park where Toronto will be, once again, at the mercy of a provincial government for transit funding. We all know that any money going to Queen's Park goes into the general slush fund and there is no guarantee that this money will be forwarded now or with different administrations towards transit.

Special fees and taxes gathered by the local transit systems or Metrolinx go directly towards agencies that can only spend the money on transportation where it is meant to be spent.

Horwath seems not only incompetent on the economic file but also an advocate of making sure that, regardless of all the talk, Queen's Park remain firmly in control of transit in the GTA and all the political influence that entails.

 

[rbt]

note: I am basing my timing estimates on the fact that Toronto would get around 1/3 of the 25% of Metrolinx funding, or around $170 million a year.

That's just about enough to cover the hole in the maintenance budget.

I expect we'll see more elevators, second exits, fire system rebuilds, new buses (province no longer subsidizes them), capacity increase for downtown LRT, platform doors, resignalling Bloor/Danforth, new trains for Bloor/Danforth (early T1's will be 30 in 2025, in ten years we'll need to start making payments), etc. rather than new lines.

All of that is assumming the city continues capital funding at the rate it has been for the last 5 years and doesn't pull back.

If Metrolinx does send down cash as a result of a new tax, it's going to be really hard for the municipalities to bump property taxes for transit spending and even with $170M/year in new money TTC's SOGR budget will still be short over the next decade.

 

[doady]

Andrea Horwath is too populist for my taste but she does kinda have a point. Why should only people pay extra taxes for transit? Why not businesses as well?

 

[spider]

This thread is titled "New transit funding sources" not "what gets built where, when or in what order".

This is a Toronto situation and it will be solved by funding from Toronto only, forget the Province because the average Ontario voter hates Toronto and all the Provincial parties are quite aware of this fact.

Tolling highways is a non-starter because the Province owns the highways, A gas surtax is a non-starter, you and I can drive north of Steeles Avenue to save $7.00 on a fill up. HOV lanes are ignored every day and will continue to be a joke, not a revenue source.

It's grow-up and wake-up time, Toronto transit will and should be financed by a substantial increase in property tax rates. Increase my property tax by 10 or 15% and spend the extra money on transit only. The municipalities surrounding Toronto have no sympathy for our problems, why should they when we refuse to tax ourselves at the same level as everyone else?

 

[Platform 27]

Andrea Horwath is too populist for my taste but she does kinda have a point. Why should only people pay extra taxes for transit? Why not businesses as well?

Businesses would pay a fair chunk of change if the Board of Trade's proposals were adopted---they pay sales taxes on all their transactions just like you or me, they ship a hell of a lot and would eat gas tax hikes there, and they'd exclusively be paying the parking levy.

 

[lead82]

Businesses would pay a fair chunk of change if the Board of Trade's proposals were adopted---they pay sales taxes on all their transactions just like you or me, they ship a hell of a lot and would eat gas tax hikes there, and they'd exclusively be paying the parking levy.

Amen. This is what Andrea and the Right wingers don't get. It's not about closing loopholes or a balanced approach. It is about putting a dedicated revenue stream for transit and transportation investments. A corporate tax hike or closing loopholes or inefficiencies would increase general revenue. This should be done regardless as we have a huge deficit last time I checked.

We just need to make sure that these are dedicated funds and under no circumstance should they be merged into general revenue like the health premium was.

 

[adeel]

My opinion is that sales tax (for ALL of ontario) should go to 15%...basically increase the ontario portion from 8% to 10%...no one can really complain because 6 or 7 years ago we were already paying that...easy to implement as well

of course the problem is that it can be tough to have it dedicated to transit since its a general tax...

 

[ssiguy2]

Translink is an example of how it should be done.

Gas taxes, levies, fees etc are done at the REGIONAL level so you don't get people crossing imaginary borders to save money. Also the tax goes directly to Translink not Victoria. Translink can only spend money on transportation {transit, regional roads, bike and walk paths} and therefore the money ends up going to where it is suppose to.

The kicker here is that, as much as they hate paying the Translink taxes, they grin and bear it because they see tangible results on projects that come in on time and on budget. Things get built as opposed to getting talked about. This is where Metrolinx would have the problem.

If people are expected to start paying the tax today they want imporvements ASAP and not vague plans about what will be done in 25 years or spending public money on systems that are not geared towards the general public ie UP Rail.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

http://www.globaltvbc.com/translink+loses+30+million+in+funding+a+year/6442829585/story.html

Riders are going to feel the immediate impacts of the coming cuts too!

 

[TOareaFan]

My opinion is that sales tax (for ALL of ontario) should go to 15%...basically increase the ontario portion from 8% to 10%...no one can really complain because 6 or 7 years ago we were already paying that...easy to implement as well

of course the problem is that it can be tough to have it dedicated to transit since its a general tax...

Like all things it is way more complicated than just tacking on 2% to the sales tax and saying that this 2% will go to transit.

The province is already in deficit....that is with the the entire provincial portion of sales taxes going to general revenues to be used for government operations. If (as is likely) that extra 2% sales tax reduces spending to any degree (the consumer only has a finite amount of money to spend) then the general revenue will decline by that amount (simple example...say there is $2B of spending now and the province gets 8% for general revenue that is $160 million of revenue......if you raise the sales tax by 2% and that causes a 2% drop in sales {it may be more} then, sure, you have raised $39 million for your transit tax but you have also depleted the already short general revenue account by over $3 million).

The converse of this is why "the right" often tout reducing sales taxes because the increase in sales that occurs (in theory) offsets the percent reduction and there is virtually no impact on tax revenue and a positive impact on job growth.

In reality, all of these revenue tools have to be considered in the context of the general economy. Individually (and certainly on boards like this) you will not find much opposition to the idea of revenue tools dedicated to transit but if, say, you take $4B a year out of the Ontario economy via tolls/taxes/fees to go to transit...that is $4B that is not available for meals, other taxes, movies, coffees...etc.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Transit funding: Is Toronto ready for its L.A. moment?

Read More: http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tra...nding_is_toronto_ready_for_its_la_moment.html

.....

By the time Los Angeles County voters were faced with a 2008 referendum for a 30-year, 0.5-per cent regional sales tax, they were sufficiently convinced to pass it with the required two-thirds majority. The key to acceptance was dedicated funding: the tax will pour $40 billion into transportation projects, including LRT and subway.

- There is no Villaraigosa fronting the Toronto fight for transit dollars. But a coalition of academics, community groups such as CivicAction, and the board of trade has been united in support of the 25-year, $50 billion Metrolinx transportation plan called the Big Move. Advocates are adamant that if Toronto residents are to pay up, government has to break from standard practice and earmark those dollars for transit, the way Los Angeles did. Committing taxes to a particular project or fund is unusual here, says University of Toronto city studies professor Zack Taylor. “Nobody wants to pay substantial new taxes that just disappear into the common pot.

- Grassroots support has been key in implementing many transit revenue tools elsewhere, as has charismatic leadership such as that of Villaraigosa, New York’s Michael Bloomberg or Ken Livingston in London, says Metrolinx vice-president John Howe. But it doesn’t have to be political leadership, he said. Academics, for example, are often credible with the public, he said.

- “I’m struck by the preoccupation (in Toronto) with investment in transit instead of developing a transportation system that sits together with the roads and transit,†said Ken Cameron, adjunct professor at Simon Fraser University and a planning consultant in Vancouver. A parking tax and a 17-cent/litre gas tax are among the funding methods for Vancouver’s transportation authority, TransLink, which manages roads as well as transit. “The thing that made the funding formula for TransLink somewhat acceptable was that the money wasn’t simply going to transit.

.....