News   Jul 18, 2024
Affordable Rental Housing for Low-Income Seniors Planned on The Queensway
 174     0 
News   Jul 18, 2024
News Roundup for July 18, 2024
 452     0 
News   Jul 18, 2024
Iridescent Evanescent
 629     1 

New Transit Funding Sources

Toronto has the trump {acknowledging that's a dirty word these days} card. All Toronto has to do is leave the Gardiner and DVP alone, that's it. Simply tell QP that it's my highways and seeing you won't let us bring in more money to help maintain/re-build them then we will just let them function by themselves. Sounds OK to QP until the Gardiner East has to be shut down permanently because it's falling apart and wait for the next snowfall when the DVP/Gardiner don't get plowed. If the 905 thinks the traffic is bad now just tell them they ain't seen nothing yet.

All Toronto has to do is do nothing and when QP bitches all they have to do is turn to QP and tell them if you want it fine, it's up for sale and it won't come cheap.
 
ssiguy2 said:
Toronto has the trump {acknowledging that's a dirty word these days} card. All Toronto has to do is leave the Gardiner and DVP alone, that's it. Simply tell QP that it's my highways and seeing you won't let us bring in more money to help maintain/re-build them then we will just let them function by themselves. Sounds OK to QP until the Gardiner East has to be shut down permanently because it's falling apart and wait for the next snowfall when the DVP/Gardiner don't get plowed. If the 905 thinks the traffic is bad now just tell them they ain't seen nothing yet.

All Toronto has to do is do nothing and when QP bitches all they have to do is turn to QP and tell them if you want it fine, it's up for sale and it won't come cheap.
Click to expand...

Like we joke in Quebec about Ontario..."You guys are too nice". Montreal would have done "something" for sure. When Laval wouldn't pay for their share of subway operation costs, Montreal threatened to short-turn all trains at Henri-Bourassa, turning the 3 Laval stops into empty cathedrals. The provinces stepped in and settled it. Don't know why Toronto didn't do the same to Vaughan but they could in theory pull off the same thing forcing York Region or the province to help pay for the operating costs
 
ssiguy2 said:
Toronto has the trump {acknowledging that's a dirty word these days} card. All Toronto has to do is leave the Gardiner and DVP alone, that's it. Simply tell QP that it's my highways and seeing you won't let us bring in more money to help maintain/re-build them then we will just let them function by themselves. Sounds OK to QP until the Gardiner East has to be shut down permanently because it's falling apart and wait for the next snowfall when the DVP/Gardiner don't get plowed. If the 905 thinks the traffic is bad now just tell them they ain't seen nothing yet.

All Toronto has to do is do nothing and when QP bitches all they have to do is turn to QP and tell them if you want it fine, it's up for sale and it won't come cheap.
Click to expand...

I hate how cynical this is, but goddamn, I'm Torontonian first before I am Ontarian. We need to put our interests at the forefront, the province doesn't function if we aren't functioning.
 
ssiguy2 said:
Simply tell QP that it's my highways and seeing you won't let us bring in more money to help maintain/re-build them then we will just let them function by themselves. Sounds OK to QP until the Gardiner East has to be shut down permanently because it's falling apart and wait for the next snowfall when the DVP/Gardiner don't get plowed.
Click to expand...

The most likely response to that by the province would just be taking away Toronto's ability to govern itself. The province would remove city council and appoint a temporary administration to get the city's operations back in shape.

On top of that, if anyone got hurt or killed there would be a fair number of city staff serving jail time.
 
Anyone thinking could turn on Wynne and facilitate the PC getting ridings within Toronto in exchange of keeping infrastructure projects rolling? I think the PC are targeting social programs and Green Energy spending way more than public transit. The PC is smart enough to know that cancelling anything in the GTA is suicide. Tory is a PC after all
 
My most savvy 905 residing friends urge me to look past the mill rate alone and look at how easy Toronto property tax payers have it.

I tried to compare Toronto's budget information
https://www1.toronto.ca/City Of Toronto/Strategic Communications/City Budget/2016/PDFs/Budget Basics/Web%2
with that from the 905. I picked Mississauga
http://www.mississauga.ca/portal/cityhall/budgethighlights
and Brampton
http://www.brampton.ca/EN/City-Hall/budget/2016 Budget/2016-2018 Approved Business Plan and Budget/3. Operating Budget Overview.pdf

What this seems to show is that Toronto collects about $3.95B in property taxes, about 34% of its operating budget. Another $3.56B or 30% is collected through Water, Waste and Parking fees plus User Fees and Fines. In contrast, both Brampton and Mississauga collect over 60% of their operating budget from property taxes, and a lesser amount (23-24%) from user fees.

If I am reading this right, Toronto already hits up users for far more of its total city budgets, where the 905 treats property tax as closer to an all-inclusive kind of fee. There are probably demographic differences - I wonder for instance whether the proportion of renters versus owners is markedly different between 416 and 905.

I'm sure that more expert people have done proper analyses of all this. However - if we have a basic divergence between Toronto already raising money through user fees, with its citizens accustomed to that, and a greater proportion not directly seeing a bill from the City at all.....versus 905 residents who are more accustomed to a tax bill, and simply don't expect user fees on top of property taxes.... then imposing a road tax on 905 commuters certainly is inflammatory, even if it's sensible.

I won't even get on to development charges, which seem to represent a much bigger share of 905 capital budgets. Toronto in general does seem to be much more beholden on the generosity of strangers (ie the Province) as Blanche DuBois would say.

My analysis is pretty primitive - but it does make me wonder if the 905 is not far off when they point out that Toronto would have lots more money to fund things if their snowflake Council would just grow a pair, face their snowflake voters and tell them to knock it off and cough up the same funds as their 905 neighbours do. (sarcasm a bit thick, but you get the idea)

Does anyone have better data on all this?

- Paul
 
crs1026 said:
There are probably demographic differences - I wonder for instance whether the proportion of renters versus owners is markedly different between 416 and 905.
Click to expand...

It is. Toronto has a lot more renters, a lot more offices, and a lot more retail, and the already-smaller portion of the budget that comes from property taxes skews heavily towards those. Toronto's rental apartments & businesses pay higher property tax rates than they would anywhere else in the GTA, meanwhile Toronto's homeowners pay a lower rate than anywhere else.

To be fair, some of the user fees are included as a part of property taxes - for example, garbage in Toronto costs up to $40 a month while in Markham it's free (and unlimited & more cost-effective with a much higher diversion rate, but that's another discussion). And many Toronto residents do pay more as a dollar amount, in the same sense that higher incomes can pay more taxes despite paying a lower tax rate. But that still doesn't excuse Toronto's ridiculously low single-residential property taxes, that are largely a result of the belief that nobody should pay more real (i.e. inflation-adjusted) property tax than they have in the past, even if the real value of their house is significantly more than it was when they bought it.
 
amnesiajune said:
The most likely response to that by the province would just be taking away Toronto's ability to govern itself. The province would remove city council and appoint a temporary administration to get the city's operations back in shape.
Click to expand...

They *could* doesn't mean they would - that would be an intrusion into municipal governance at a level that is pretty much unjustifiable. There are other levers to induce/incentivize compliance.

AoD
 
I wonder if any candidate would have the political courage to reread to the Metrolinx Investment Strategy and try to adopt some of it at the Toronto level.

I wouldn't be sorry if Wynne's rejection of this strategy was brought into the spotlight heading into the next election. She had a sound body of thought put into it, and walked away.

Of course, some other party would have to endorse it, and they won't .... but do they have a better idea?

- Paul
 
I honestly cant figure out the provincial political calculus that says a local sales or payroll tax is a bad idea. A sales tax minimally affects the 905 (in fact you could argue it incentives 905 retail shopping) and it taxes visitors to the city - a major revenue pool with no blowback at the polls. Its like the Hotel tax on steroids.
 
bobbob911 said:
I honestly cant figure out the provincial political calculus that says a local sales or payroll tax is a bad idea. A sales tax minimally affects the 905 (in fact you could argue it incentives 905 retail shopping) and it taxes visitors to the city - a major revenue pool with no blowback at the polls. Its like the Hotel tax on steroids.
Click to expand...

Yeah but the last thing any provincial government want is to give that kind of power away - because they would be dinged for making that decision (and by extension, it would be "their" new tax). Plus even if they can get away that, I can't imagine that power would be given to Toronto alone and not other municipalities (and then you'd end up with each municipality having a different sales tax rate, which would be weird).

AoD
 
Not sure about the former - If the province gives permission to tax but the city implements it, I don't think the province really owns that decision. And besides, clearly the 416 voter base is on board with new revenue sources for transit. I really think it would be a wash or net positive to the province.

With respect to the latter - Toronto uniquely has additional taxing powers already, its just an extension of that. I know the other municipalities would rattle cages but it doesn't mean it has to happen. Again, the political calculus here is easy - voters may not reject a sales tax in Toronto, but 905 voters would likely have a very different opinion of municipal sales taxes in their regions. Its not a handout of free money.

Exhibit A is the MLTT - I'm not aware of any other cities begging to implement one.
 
You must log in or register to post here.

Back
Top