New Transit Funding Sources

[sixrings]

So you are saying this is rapid transit for Toronto and East York, and tough luck for those east of Leslie, including all of Scarborough.

yea... whats the point in calling it a crosstown if you have to transfer at least once to get across on the same route... maybe it makes sense in rush hour but thats it...

 

[Wrenkin]

yea... whats the point in calling it a crosstown if you have to transfer at least once to get across on the same route... maybe it makes sense in rush hour but thats it...

Based on the previous comment it sounds like you have to transfer half the time. That doesn't sound like "at least once". Also, if people east of Leslie took it more often, who's to say they couldn't run more there? Aren't the cars double-ended? Wouldn't be too hard to turn back.

 

[BurlOak]

Based on the previous comment it sounds like you have to transfer half the time. That doesn't sound like "at least once". Also, if people east of Leslie took it more often, who's to say they couldn't run more there? Aren't the cars double-ended? Wouldn't be too hard to turn back.

There is also the transfer at Kennedy to the SRT - so one and a half transfers are required on average.

 

[nfitz]

First, when I said it wouldn't be any faster than a bus and less reliable I was assuming that the bus would be ROW down the road just like the Finch corridor.

How much wider would that make the ROW? You can run LRT much closer together at 60 km/hr than you can run bendy-buses.

The buses would be just as fast, you can now get 30 meter long buses

Toronto's new articulated buses are 18-metres long. I think there's a few isolated cased of 24-metre long buses in North America. I don't think there are any 30-metre long buses operating. I dread to think how they'd behave in icy conditions, and how wide the ROW would have to be. Eglinton trains will be 90-metres long, not 30-metres long.

Second, I understand that the SRT to LRT conversion will run along the current SRT corridor but will not be totally grade separated after Malvern and just one intersection means the line can't be automated.

Not true. SRT extension to Malvern Town Centre is 100% grade-separated. And there is no funding currently to even build it north of Sheppard. I suppose you could run it past Malvern Town Centre as non-grade separated, but there has been no discussion of this, and few places left for it to go inside Toronto.

Any accident along the DM to Kennedy section will halt the whole line.

The Toronto subway frequently halts because of an incident. I took the subway from Union to Kipling in rush-hour yesterday, and had to divert up Yonge instead of University because the trains were stopped because of an incident at St. Andrew. Then on Bloor the trains were delayed because of train mechanical failure at Royal York. Perhaps this was only my imagination because it was grade-separated?

Most of Eglinton from Jane to east of the DVP will be grade separated. Even the Kennedy intersection will be grade separated.

 

[innsertnamehere]

yea... whats the point in calling it a crosstown if you have to transfer at least once to get across on the same route... maybe it makes sense in rush hour but thats it...

All the surface trains will run through the underground portion, but there will be more trains running on the underground portion only. Like many other transit systems, you would wait for the LRT to come to the station that has KENNEDY at the front, and take that. It's the same thing with the spading extension, where only some of the trains will go north of Downsview. You simply wait at the stop you are getting on until a VAUGHN train comes, instead of hopping on a DOWNSVIEW train and transferring again at
Downsview.

 

[gweed123]

How much wider would that make the ROW? You can run LRT much closer together at 60 km/hr than you can run bendy-buses.

A couple feet, at most. Basically the width of a general traffic lane. And your 2nd comment there is pretty irrelevant, considering that the projected ridership on Finch West is going to have trains running several minutes apart, thus "much closer together" doesn't really mean anything. And OC Transpo runs buses pretty close together through downtown, even when they're moving.

Toronto's new articulated buses are 18-metres long. I think there's a few isolated cased of 24-metre long buses in North America. I don't think there are any 30-metre long buses operating. I dread to think how they'd behave in icy conditions, and how wide the ROW would have to be. Eglinton trains will be 90-metres long, not 30-metres long.

They seem to work just fine in Ottawa. And yes, I rode 4 of them (2 in, 2 out) every weekday last winter, some days in some pretty crappy conditions. From personal experience, I think the problems with artics and weather are overblown.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

30 metre(bi-articulated) buses have never been used in Ontario, so there's no way to know how they'll fare in winter conditions.

 

[gweed123]

30 metre(bi-articulated) buses have never been used in Ontario, so there's no way to know how they'll fare in winter conditions.

I misinterpreted what nfitz was saying, sorry. I thought he was talking about 18m artics being unable to handle winters.

And just to clarify, I'm advocating for the use of 18m artics, not 30m artics.

 

[nfitz]

A couple feet, at most. Basically the width of a general traffic lane. And your 2nd comment there is pretty irrelevant, considering that the projected ridership on Finch West is going to have trains running several minutes apart, thus "much closer together" doesn't really mean anything. And OC Transpo runs buses pretty close together through downtown, even when they're moving.

I'm not sure how the clearance between the vehicles running in opposite directions is related to the frequency. You can't have the vehicles moving in opposite directions as close together if your using buses, than if you are using LRT. Looking at shots of the Transitway in Goole, it looks to be about 35% wider than the St. Clair LRT ROW (which wouldn't have had to be as wide if they hadn't used those centre poles.

They seem to work just fine in Ottawa. And yes, I rode 4 of them (2 in, 2 out) every weekday last winter, some days in some pretty crappy conditions.

When did Ottawa get 30-metre long buses? Let alone 90-metres long.

 

[gweed123]

I'm not sure how the clearance between the vehicles running in opposite directions is related to the frequency. You can't have the vehicles moving in opposite directions as close together if your using buses, than if you are using LRT. Looking at shots of the Transitway in Goole, it looks to be about 35% wider than the St. Clair LRT ROW (which wouldn't have had to be as wide if they hadn't used those centre poles.

You didn't say clearance between buses heading in opposite directions, you said "much closer together". To me, that means frequency.

In any case, I'm an advocate for shoulder bus lanes, so artics passing eachother in opposite directions is moot, because there would be at least 4 lanes of traffic between them when they do pass.

When did Ottawa get 30-metre long buses? Let alone 90-metres long.

I addressed that in the comment above, I thought you were talking about artics in general, not specifically 30m artics (you said "how they'd behave", which I interpreted as meaning all artics).

 

[nfitz]

You didn't say clearance between buses heading in opposite directions, you said "much closer together". To me, that means frequency.

In a paragraph discussing the width of the right-of-way?

In any case, I'm an advocate for shoulder bus lanes, so artics passing each other in opposite directions is moot, because there would be at least 4 lanes of traffic between them when they do pass.

Down Eglinton??

I addressed that in the comment above, I thought you were talking about artics in general, not specifically 30m artics (you said "how they'd behave", which I interpreted as meaning all artics).

Never got that far ... still, you'll need significantly wider ROW for 12-metre buses as well. And if very you replace a 90-metre long train with buses, you'd need 5 buses for every 1 train. That's 5 times the number of employees. Close to twice as much if you only run 30-metre long trains.

 

[gweed123]

In a paragraph discussing the width of the right-of-way?

I see what you meant now, but it was still kind of confusing. Either way, I'm past that now, it's been clarified.

Down Eglinton??

Down Finch West. I never mentioned Eglinton. I'm not ecstatic about the LRT plan on Eglinton East, but there are worse things, so I accept it.

Never got that far ... still, you'll need significantly wider ROW for 12-metre buses as well. And if very you replace a 90-metre long train with buses, you'd need 5 buses for every 1 train. That's 5 times the number of employees. Close to twice as much if you only run 30-metre long trains.

I know you're talking about Eglinton running 90m trains, but let's just clarify that Finch West won't be running 90m trains. They'll likely be running 30m long trains on both FW and SE. Yes, you require more buses during peak to carry the same load, but that also means that you can more effectively scale the service down in non-peak times so that you don't have nearly empty trains or trains running so far apart that the 'rapid' part is lost. You can scale it down from an artic every 2 minutes during peak to an artic every 5 minutes during off-peak.

And bus lanes to the best of my knowledge are the same width and standard vehicle lanes (3m). The difference isn't that substantial. In fact, in-median LRT lanes require what basically amounts to a curb on either side of the ROW to separate it from general traffic. The end result in ROW width between that and a shoulder bus lane is a matter of a couple feet, at most.

And I know some people on here are talking about in-median BRT lanes, but personally I think that shoulder lanes are much better. For what it's worth, Halton Region happens to agree with me, as they're designing their Dundas BRT system with shoulder lanes instead of in-median lanes (I actually read a report they did comparing the benefits of the two, and shoulder lanes came out on top).

 

[rbt]

I know you're talking about Eglinton running 90m trains, but let's just clarify that Finch West won't be running 90m trains. They'll likely be running 30m long trains on both FW and SE.

60m (2 LRT cars) was the original intention. Who knows what corners will get cut if they actually get built.

 

[innsertnamehere]

60m (2 LRT cars) was the original intention. Who knows what corners will get cut if they actually get built.

well aren't you quite the optimist.

 

[ssiguy2]

Obviously buses for Eglinton won't work which is why when I said buses I specifically stated Finch.

It's bizzare to me, the whole damn thing. Finch has a hydro corridor and a section of BRT already built but won't use it yet it would be a very fast route and due to be separated grade past Jane, more reliable.

As far as Eglinton, I think the whole discussion is absurd. Improve the SRT to accomodate MK111 trains, heat the rail and save a cool half a billion and use those funds for elevate the DM to Kennedy section. It's not rocket science. I believe this is what Metrolinx originally wanted for Eglinton and they were right. I also don't understand why elevation won't be considered especially thru the "Golden Mile" which is and always will be an industrial/commercial strip. In Vancouver new condos go up right along the SkyTrain route and they sell with a premium. One new tower in New Westminster is only 5 meters from the track. Every other city on the planet elevates but then those are cities that actually built transit and not just create pretty lines on a map. For Toronto subways mean underground or nothing and needless to say in the past 30 years Toronto choose the later.