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New Transit Funding Sources

How can Toronto justify being the ONLY city in the country that expects senior levels of government to pay for all it's transit expansion? That extra money Toronto is demanding is money other cities that are willing to put their money where their mouths are won't get.

This. I find it incredible that the entire debate in Toronto has centred around how to spend other peoples' money. Not once did a politician offer to make up the cost difference between the subways and the LRTs to get subways on certain corridors.

The Left is obssessed with quantity over quality. The right is obssessed with quality on a impossibly small shoestring budget. Neither, truly cares about building an effective transit system that serves the public.

Having just moved from Ottawa, I was stunned by the contrast over there. Their taxpayers are paying for one-third of their LRT project. And when given the choice (at election time) to elect candidates who would have cheaped out on the most expensive portion (the downtown tunnel), they rejected those choices in favour of a solid long-term solution. But in Toronto, there's no willingness to address the transit shortfall, traffic congestion, development, regional integration, etc.

I am disappointed in my hometown. And don't really hold much hope for its future.
 
The entire Eglinton battle is a complete charade. If Toronto was willing to kick in a billion they could have a continuous grade separated transit line from Jane to Malvern by tunneling, using current rail corridors and elevation from the DM to Kennedy section.

Hell, if Metrolinx and the TTC actually decided to put transit users first and their fiefdoms second Toronto Metro line from Union to Pearson to serve the people that pay for it. They could do the whole damn thing for less than $1 billion.........the cost of the Finch LRT which won't be any faster than a bus but considerably less reliable.

Think about this for a minute kids, after spending $11 billion on transit from now to 2020 {Spadina ext & TC}, Toronto will end up with just 2km more subway/Metro length than they have today. It's an obscene waste of money and if I was the new premier {I almost wrote McGuinty}, I would renege on the whole damn thing and tell Toronto that it is for grade separated transit only and tell Toronto that they will get their $8 billion when they find another $4 billion themselves and I would demand Vancouver prices and Vancouver schedules so the damn things actually get built on time and on budget.
 
...the cost of the Finch LRT which won't be any faster than a bus but considerably less reliable.
Why do you say things like this? The Finch West bus in PM rush-hour has an average speed of 17 km/hr over the entire route - and that's assuming it's actually on-time. If you look at the schedule from Kipling to Keele at 5 pm, the scheduled running time is 30 minutes over the 7.7 km, that's 15.4 km/hr - at 23 km/hr, this scheduled 30 minutes would instead be 20 minutes, and less prone to delays. How do you claim that 20 minutes isn't faster than 30 minutes?

In the next 20 years, congestion on Finch is predicted to get much worse, making travel times even slower. LRT would be faster than this. And much more reliable in it's own lane.
 
Ford suggested a future Finch Subway as an alternative.

.....with absolutely no funding source with which to build it, let alone operate it for the first 100 years of its life when it is running under-capacity. Not much of an alternative.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
Think about this for a minute kids, after spending $11 billion on transit from now to 2020 {Spadina ext & TC}, Toronto will end up with just 2km more subway/Metro length than they have today.

I am going to be a bit rude here. This is such a load of BS. I am assuming you're reducing the length of the system because of the SRT. The LRT upgrade will still be fully grade-seperated, and will be extended 3.2km to Malvern. Add the 8.6km Spadiana Extension, and you have 11.8km of fully grade seperated transit.

I'll ask a simple question: Why do you hate LRT?
 
...the cost of the Finch LRT which won't be any faster than a bus but considerably less reliable.
Why do you say things like this?

He also says things like this:

after spending $11 billion on transit from now to 2020 {Spadina ext & TC}, Toronto will end up with just 2km more subway/Metro length than they have today.

Which is patently false. The Spadina Extension alone is 8.6 km. The underground section of the Eglinton line (which is by almost every definition a Metro) will be somewhere north of 10km.

Oh I get it, "Toronto" will only get 2km, because only 2.4km of Spadina is in the city limits, and Eglinton doesn't count, because... it doesn't count.
 
Ford suggested a future Finch Subway as an alternative.

He could have suggested a scenic canal with a punt based service. At some point we need to assess suggestions as something we will pay for or will not; and a subway on Finch isn't happening during my working career (30 years left).

I'm not certain Ford can find funding for the DRL which is something nearly everybody in council and Metrolinx agrees with.
 
Ford suggested a future Finch Subway as an alternative.

To be fair, the Ford-McGuinty compromise also suggested enhanced bus service (aka pre-BRT) as a solution as well. There may not be the funding or the demand for a subway, but there definitely is enough of both of those to build a BRT.
 
First, when I said it wouldn't be any faster than a bus and less reliable I was assuming that the bus would be ROW down the road just like the Finch corridor. The buses would be just as fast, you can now get 30 meter long buses and the buses won't be stopped by a power failure or an accident anywhere along the route which would bring this supposed "rpaid transit" to a screetching halt.

Second, I understand that the SRT to LRT conversion will run along the current SRT corridor but will not be totally grade separated after Malvern and just one intersection means the line can't be automated.

Third, the Eglinton Line will NOT be grade separated transit as I stated. Rapid and mass transit is only as effective as it's weakest link. Any accident along the DM to Kennedy section will halt the whole line. This is say nothing of the fact that it will more expensive to run as it can't be automated, be able to run less frequenctly and the stations will cost more as they will have to be larger to accomodate the same capacity. The Canada Line stations are too small but those 50 meter stations will still have higher capacity than 100 meter LRT stations as they can run every 90 seconds and the very most any at grade system can run is every 3 minutes. The money they save on having smaller stations could be used to elevate the line from DM to Kennedy.

As far as this "I hate LRT crap" well, that's crap. I happen to be a fan of LRT and I think it is a viable alternative to expensive subway systems. Calgary's CTrain, Edmonton LRT, Dallas DART, L.A.'s LRT Metrorail are excellent examples of effective LRT used as an affordable mass/rapid transit to expensive subways. These, however, are REAL rapid transit with subway stop spacing, near total LRT priority using very few lights and most of the time in complete segregated corridors with train track crossing where the traffic always waits for the train. They are much faster than Toronto LRT but are also more reliable........they are true rapid transit. Those cities decided to give transit true priority and not try to make the transit still secondary to car traffic flow.

Edmonton was the first city in NA to bring in rapid transit LRT in 1975. It was forward thinking and a more affordable alternative to subway/Metro and Calgary did an even better job. The reason these cities brought back this useful technology for rapid transit was due to it's speed, comfort, reliability, and especially it's cost savings. Every city would love to build subways all over the damn place but the prices are very prohibitive. LRT as these cities have executed it brough similar speed and reliability with the huge costs.

The trouble with Eglinton is that it is LRT but with subway/Metro costs. Toronto is building the Eglinton corridor and hardly saving a cent and it will certainly be more expensive to run due to not being automated and LRT vehicles need replacing sooner than standard LRT trains. Of the 4 technology options, heavy rail, SkyTrain, monorail, and LRT for Eglinton, Toronto is going with the worse possible choice. The LRT will have to have larger tunnels to accomodate the catenary wires, the stations will have to be much larger to accomodate the same pphpd, it will be the least reliable, and the slowest. Toronto is having to build 100 meter LRt stations to have the same capacity as 50 meter heavy rail, SkyTrain, or monorail stations.

LRT came back due to being an affordable alternative but Toronto has negated any of those benefits and is getting the worse of all possible technologies all to bring about Miller's LRT wet dreams about turning the "Golden Mile" into some form of bohemian wonderland.

LRT can have excellent applications as Calgary and LA have shown but not Toronto. That's the problem when Toronto has none of it's own money at risk, value for the dollar becomes far less relevant. Contrary to what Miller and the boys thing, there is no such thing as a "one size fits all" rapid transit network whether that be for the technology {ie LRT, heavy rail, Monorail, SkyTrain, DMU, BRT} or how it is constructed {ie elevated, at grade, rail corridors, hydro corridors, underground or a combination of any of them} but Toronto can't seem to get it's head around that.
 
Third, the Eglinton Line will NOT be grade separated transit as I stated. Rapid and mass transit is only as effective as it's weakest link. Any accident along the DM to Kennedy section will halt the whole line.
Whew, good thing that they already plan on operating the underground portion semi-independently at higher frequencies, so it will continue to operate regardless of conditions on the surface.
 
Exactly. The underground portion will have higher frequencies than the above ground portion. probably only around half of the trains will go to Kennedy, as the ridership drops dramatically once it hits the surface. (specifically Don Mills)
 
Exactly. The underground portion will have higher frequencies than the above ground portion. probably only around half of the trains will go to Kennedy, as the ridership drops dramatically once it hits the surface. (specifically Don Mills)

So you are saying this is rapid transit for Toronto and East York, and tough luck for those east of Leslie, including all of Scarborough.
 

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