New Transit Funding Sources

[Red October]

Mammo is a weasel. The city would be better off if he left forever.

Anyway as much as I criticize Tory this is a step in the right direction, though I personally support a congestion charge more than highway tolls (as that would take away the whole "use Lakeshore instead of the Gardiner" cheat).

 

[salsa]

With this plan, we truly could see the Relief Line under construction within a few years, plus other needed transit projects.

Reality check:

Jennifer Pagliaro ‏@jpags
A $1.40 toll on DVP/Gardiner would be needed to recover cost of rebuilding Gardiner alone. Little left for transit, anything else at $2 toll



The rest of the money will probably go to SmartTrack and Scarborough subway cost overruns.

 

[justindw]

With this plan, we truly could see the Relief Line under construction within a few years, plus other needed transit projects. I love this! Bravo to Mayor Tory for presenting such a bold plan… however…

As much as I like and support Mayor Tory’s plan, this will just give fuel to Doug Ford in possibility running for mayor again in 2018. The public reaction this morning is widely negative. If Ford runs and wins, say goodbye to a solid revenue stream for transit projects. The Sheppard extension (which I support) would be the most likely project that gets done under Ford.

The problem with this line of thinking is that, if we indulge in it, we may as well just elect Doug Ford.

 

[crs1026]

The report is written in a way which lets EC pick and choose. Some of the items have lower revenue potential, and/or lower borrowing potential. I suspect there are plenty of "straw dogs" which were included so that EC can reject them and take credit for doing so.

The big question that hangs over this is - how much money does EC actually intend to raise? How much transit will that actually buy?

The pessimistic view is that the politicians will accept one or two of the more innocuous items, and then brag to excess about how they showed incredible courage and resolve by opening up new taxation.....thereby defeating the criticism that they have stuck their heads in the sand. But the amount of taxation won't actually fund very much.

The other pessimistic view is that they will actually approve some big-ticket taxation items, but in a way that defers implementation and leaves the door open to reverse themselves.

But maybe this will be a step in the right direction.

- Paul

 

[Cobra]

Reality check:

Jennifer Pagliaro ‏@jpags
A $1.40 toll on DVP/Gardiner would be needed to recover cost of rebuilding Gardiner alone. Little left for transit, anything else at $2 toll



The rest of the money will probably go to SmartTrack and Scarborough subway cost overruns.

She's not using proper math here. It's not about having tolls to accumulate enough money annually to start a project and keeping it running. The rational of tolls is that the city can borrow money (bonds) upfront and use the tolls to give investors the confidence of them getting a return, which lower the interest rate on the loan, your debt payments. Tolls can be adjusted to generate more cashflow.

This way instead of starting DRL in 2026, you could start in as soon it's shovel ready without having to wait for the Feds and province cheques, which, once approved will come.

 

[gweed123]

Reality check:

Jennifer Pagliaro ‏@jpags
A $1.40 toll on DVP/Gardiner would be needed to recover cost of rebuilding Gardiner alone. Little left for transit, anything else at $2 toll

Honestly, if it pays for the Gardiner rebuild in the next 10 years, I'll be happy. I have no issues at all with road tolls being specifically diverted to rebuilding road infrastructure. I just want to see the money that was already committed to the Gardiner East project moved to a transit project instead.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

bold steps by tory.

 

[44 North]

Very bold, and I like that the toll amounts are reasonable ($2-3). Hopefully it stays that way. Not normally a fan of tolls, but if it's a couple bucks to cross the city (i.e not some perverse highway robbery a la 407) this is something that the average outer 416 councillor can get behind. I wouldn't doubt Mammo eventually voting in favour.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Why charge cars to pay for transit? WHy not increase fares to what it actually cost to run these services?
If some folks cant pay for it subsidize it bases on income qualifications.

Why not increase property taxes? If you want to be a world class city increase property taxes.

Car user pay more than 40c/liter for the roads anyway. There is only so much you can squeeze out of car drivers. I sense that there is a huge anti-car bias on this forum, but try to think reasonably. Tolling Gardiner and dvp would lead to massive congestion on auxiliary streets. This act would be a political suicide for the mayor.

Meanwhile, gas tax rates have been frozen since 1992.

War on the car? More like war on public transit commuter.

 

[amnesiajune]

Reality check: A $1.40 toll on DVP/Gardiner would be needed to recover cost of rebuilding Gardiner alone.

The cost of rebuilding the Gardiner is $5 million per year in operating expenses. The toll is supposedly going to collect $200 million/year.

There's very little difference in the capital cost between rebuilding it and tearing it down + expanding Lakeshore. The "billion dollar" figure is based on capital costs plus operating costs for 100 years (which add up to around $500 million).

Meanwhile, gas tax rates have been frozen since 1992.

Not true at all. An 8% sales tax was added to gasoline in 2010, and the cap and trade system going into effect in January works out to roughly 4.3 cents per liter on gasoline.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Matt Elliott@GraphicMatt
7 mins ago
It's fun how people are like "all glory to the free market!" about everything except driving.

I saw someone on Twitter call the conservative outrage over this, "automobile socialism".

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Tory's property tax levy for transit is expected to take $70 Million annually. The hotel tax will generate another $20 Million. Then there's the Gardiner/DVP tax, generating $160 Million with $2 fare. Real significant $$$ for transit.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Reality check:

Jennifer Pagliaro ‏@jpags
A $1.40 toll on DVP/Gardiner would be needed to recover cost of rebuilding Gardiner alone. Little left for transit, anything else at $2 toll



The rest of the money will probably go to SmartTrack and Scarborough subway cost overruns.

This confuses me. The Gardiner cost about $1 Billion to rebuild. That's four years of revenue from these taxes and tolls generating a combined $250 Million annually. Any idea how she calculated that?

 

[chicu1981]

The toll rate should be set at the current price of a TTC token (or future Presto fare), with any increase in one triggering an automatic increase in the other. I wonder how willing Council would be to raise TTC fares if it also meant raising toll prices.

There is no relationship between then two? Whats the rationale?

Its a dumb idea therefore council would not consider it.

 

[bobbob911]

There is no relationship between then two? Whats the rationale?

The rationale is that transit loving councilors will think twice about jacking up the toll rate, and car loving councilors will think twice about jacking up the TTC rate. It puts everyone in the same boat. Its a great idea.