New Transit Funding Sources

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Typical public servant attitude. Why would you spend money based on future revenue just for the sake of "just spending money"? WTF is wrong with you? "Spend money" just to undermine the future government? Would you max out the credit credit card of your children leave them to pay for your "Spending"?

pathetic. This road tolling is a terrible idea and it would fail miserably.

People spend money based on assumptions around future revenue all the time, it's not a public servant attitude - it's called a mortgage. The question is whether such spending is needed and fits in the ability to pay. If it is, it should happen.

As to undermining future governments, I don't see any complaints about tax cuts that basically closes out revenue streams for the future even when there is a significant national debt to be paid off. So much for "thinking about the children".

AoD

 

[chicu1981]

People spend money based on assumptions around future revenue all the time, it's not a public servant attitude - it's called a mortgage. The question is whether such spending is needed and fits in the ability to pay. If it is, it should happen.

As to undermining future governments, I don't see any complaints about tax cuts that basically closes out revenue streams for the future even when there is a significant national debt to be paid off. So much for "thinking about the children".

AoD

Why not implement a sales tax?
Why charge cars to pay for transit? WHy not increase fares to what it actually cost to run these services?
If some folks cant pay for it subsidize it bases on income qualifications.

Why not increase property taxes? If you want to be a world class city increase property taxes.

Car user pay more than 40c/liter for the roads anyway. There is only so much you can squeeze out of car drivers. I sense that there is a huge anti-car bias on this forum, but try to think reasonably. Tolling Gardiner and dvp would lead to massive congestion on auxiliary streets. This act would be a political suicide for the mayor.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Why not implement a sales tax?
Why charge cars to pay for transit? WHy not increase fares to what it actually cost to run these services?
If some folks cant pay for it subsidize it bases on income qualifications.

Why not increase property taxes? If you want to be a world class city increase property taxes.

Car user pay more than 40c/liter for the roads anyway. There is only so much you can squeeze out of car drivers. I sense that there is a huge anti-car bias on this forum, but try to think reasonably. Tolling Gardiner and dvp would lead to massive congestion on auxiliary streets. This act would be a political suicide for the mayor.

Why increase property taxes? Road tolls is directly attributable to users - it's basically a service fee for a limited good. For the greatest majority of users - if you can afford to drive to downtown and park in downtown in a car by yourself, you can afford what, $2 each way.

And it isn't an "anti-car bias" - it's the belief that driving is not a right.

AoD

 

[gweed123]

The toll rate should be set at the current price of a TTC token (or future Presto fare), with any increase in one triggering an automatic increase in the other. I wonder how willing Council would be to raise TTC fares if it also meant raising toll prices.

 

[chicu1981]

Why increase property taxes? Road tolls is directly attributable to users - it's basically a service fee for a limited good. For the greatest majority of users - if you can afford to drive to downtown and park in downtown, you can afford what, $2 each way.

And it isn't an "anti-car bias" - it's the belief that driving is not a right.

AoD

So transit is a right?

"Road tolls is directly attributable to users " HOW? the political argument to institute road tolls on car users is to pay for transit infrastructure for transit riders. Direct attribution would be to charge transit users via fares,

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

So transit is a right?

"Road tolls is directly attributable to users " HOW? the political argument is its is to pay for transit infrastructure. Direct attribution would be to charge transit sue via fares,

It isn't - and people pay fares for a reason. Besides, if you want to argue that isn't more important than the Gardiner - try shutting GO or the TTC down and find out how the road system will work out? Road users benefit from having a transit system that makes a limited good available.

AoD

 

[steveintoronto]

The toll rate should be set at the current price of a TTC token (or future Presto fare), with any increase in one triggering an automatic increase in the other. I wonder how willing Council would be to raise TTC fares if it also meant raising toll prices.

That's an excellent approach to the rationale for tolling. What's good for the Gander Airport is good for the Goose of Tolling.

I was about to answer this when I read your answer:

Why would you spend money based on future revenue just for the sake of "just spending money"?

Check your credit card at all lately?

Why charge cars to pay for transit?

Why charge transit users for the cost of cars?

So transit is a right?

lol...you must like getting into fights and losing.

Last time I checked, it wasn't free to take transit, at least not in this city. It is in some in the core. Care to discuss that?

 

[Cobra]

Typical public servant attitude. Why would you spend money based on future revenue just for the sake of "just spending money"? WTF is wrong with you?

So what's your plan? Toronto becoming the next Los Angeles? Oh, wait they are expending their transit actually. If you are to criticize something, we'd like to hear your alternatives. These tolls will definitely help Toronto secure more funds by borrowing at a lower interest rates. The city can start submitting shovel ready projects to the Federal government program that will cover 50% of the cost and the province. Once it pass city council, Queen's Park gives additional tax power to the city and the tolls project starts, the city can borrow and start the projects immediately instead of waiting years for other level of government to start sending cheques. Also it's best to build them at today's dollars than in 15 years dollars.

"Spend money" just to undermine the future government?

I won't assumed that you voted Conservatives during the last election, but that's what Harper tried to do. He went on a spending spree to undermine the economical platform of the Liberals and NDP because he knew there was no way they could deliver. The Liberals didn't took the bait and announce the massive infrastructure plan and deficits unlike the NDP who were promising spending while balancing the budget...

This isn't Tory trying to undermine the next mayoral candidates, it's him seeing the wall were hitting and that something has to give. We can't keep underfunding the TTC and building transit at such a slow pace. If anything, he did a favor to whoever will run next as they will take advantage of this extra revenue stream without being the one who implemented it.

Oh boy, I'm already seeing fantasy transit maps being drawn by future mayoral candidates

Would you max out the credit credit card of your children leave them to pay for your "Spending"?

We're not maxing out the credit card for our children to pay.

• We're taking a mortgage to pay for extensive vital infrastructure (house repair and expansion) which will increase the quality of life in Toronto making it a more desirable place to live and invest, thus making us more competitive against other world class cities (More space, more comfort, more people willing to visit you, more people finding you desirable who want to live with you).
• On top of that, were spending it soon (at today's dollars while interest rates are low) instead of our kids having to do the same tomorrow (at a higher interest rate at possibly over double the cost)
• And the kicker? We'll put a mechanism in place to repay that mortgage (at today's dollars) back (tolls or renting out the basement) so our kids won't have to bankrupt themselves to do it at tomorrow's rates.

Hope you understand the logic a bit better.

pathetic. This road tolling is a terrible idea and it would fail miserably.

There are tolls all around the world. At least outsiders contribute to pay for infrastructure they are using in our city. If you can afford a car+insurance+fees+gas+repairs/maintenance, you can afford to pay tolls. If you can't, take public transit.

 

[Cobra]

The toll rate should be set at the current price of a TTC token (or future Presto fare), with any increase in one triggering an automatic increase in the other. I wonder how willing Council would be to raise TTC fares if it also meant raising toll prices.

Exactly

Those who are complaining about it, take it to Queen's Park and tell your MPP to have the province take back the DVP and Gardiner and restore the subsidies to the TTC. Leave the city out of it

 

[Miscreant]

So what's your plan? Toronto becoming the next Los Angeles? Oh, wait they are expending their transit actually. If you are to criticize something, we'd like to hear your alternatives. These tolls will definitely help Toronto secure more funds by borrowing at a lower interest rates. The city can start submitting shovel ready projects to the Federal government program that will cover 50% of the cost and the province. Once it pass city council, Queen's Park gives additional tax power to the city and the tolls project starts, the city can borrow and start the projects immediately instead of waiting years for other level of government to start sending cheques. Also it's best to build them at today's dollars than in 15 years dollars.


I won't assumed that you voted Conservatives during the last election, but that's what Harper tried to do. He went on a spending spree to undermine the economical platform of the Liberals and NDP because he knew there was no way they could deliver. The Liberals didn't took the bait and announce the massive infrastructure plan and deficits unlike the NDP who were promising spending while balancing the budget...

This isn't Tory trying to undermine the next mayoral candidates, it's him seeing the wall were hitting and that something has to give. We can't keep underfunding the TTC and building transit at such a slow pace. If anything, he did a favor to whoever will run next as they will take advantage of this extra revenue stream without being the one who implemented it.

Oh boy, I'm already seeing fantasy transit maps being drawn by future mayoral candidates


We're not maxing out the credit card for our children to pay.

• We're taking a mortgage to pay for extensive vital infrastructure (house repair and expansion) which will increase the quality of life in Toronto making it a more desirable place to live and invest, thus making us more competitive against other world class cities (More space, more comfort, more people willing to visit you, more people finding you desirable who want to live with you).
• On top of that, were spending it soon (at today's dollars while interest rates are low) instead of our kids having to do the same tomorrow (at a higher interest rate at possibly over double the cost)
• And the kicker? We'll put a mechanism in place to repay that mortgage (at today's dollars) back (tolls or renting out the basement) so our kids won't have to bankrupt themselves to do it at tomorrow's rates.

Hope you understand the logic a bit better.


There are tolls all around the world. At least outsiders contribute to pay for infrastructure they are using in our city. If you can afford a car+insurance+fees+gas+repairs/maintenance, you can afford to pay tolls. If you can't, take public transit.

I believe this is called a smackdown, friends, for it satisfies the 3 P's: precise, pointed, persuasive.

 

[gweed123]

That's an excellent approach to the rationale for tolling. What's good for the Gander Airport is good for the Goose of Tolling.

Exactly

Those who are complaining about it, take it to Queen's Park and tell your MPP to have the province take back the DVP and Gardiner and restore the subsidies to the TTC. Leave the city out of it

There are two aspects of it that I think work well:

1) It's a reasonable price, and is easy to comprehend (like a transit fare).
2) It's a very symbolic move, because it says a) "we're all in this together", and b) "it's going to cost you the same either way, so why not take transit?"

What would be the best way of getting a push going for some kind of motion to have this included in the Council resolution?

 

[amnesiajune]

Those who are complaining about it, take it to Queen's Park and tell your MPP to have the province take back the DVP and Gardiner

The province was never responsible for the DVP or most of the Gardiner. Metro built the freeways up to Highway 401 and west to the Humber River, and the province built the 404 and QEW to link with them. The only thing that was transferred from the provincial government to the city is a 6 km portion of the then-20 km Gardiner.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Item/Report from the Dec Ex Com:

http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2016.EX20.2

AoD

 

[SJD_Toronto]

With this plan, we truly could see the Relief Line under construction within a few years, plus other needed transit projects. I love this! Bravo to Mayor Tory for presenting such a bold plan… however…

As much as I like and support Mayor Tory’s plan, this will just give fuel to Doug Ford in possibility running for mayor again in 2018. The public reaction this morning is widely negative. If Ford runs and wins, say goodbye to a solid revenue stream for transit projects. The Sheppard extension (which I support) would be the most likely project that gets done under Ford.

 

[ChesterCopperpot]

Should Council decide to implement expressway tolling, a toll which recovers the cost of the Gardiner project (about $1.40 per trip) would free up $2.6 billion in total funding (including $1.85 billion in debt) currently contained in the City's approved 10-year capital plan. A toll of up to $2.00 per trip would generate just under $5 billion expressed in today's dollars over 30 years.