New Transit Funding Sources

[ssiguy2]

I totally disagree with free transit. It's a public service but that doesn't mean it should be totally free.

If Toronto was to get really serious about transit it would tax itself appropriately and use those taxes to dramatically reduce fares.
Just look at the UPX. 2000 passengers a day $27 fare and now 7000 with $12 fares with no increase in service. In other words the system is making more now with lower fares.

 

[pstogios]

I'm confused. This chart doesn't show Toronto's unemployment rising to 7% - it shows it dropping from 7.3% to 6.7% in July 2016.

From January 2016 to June 2016 the rate was above 7.0% and this could have affected ridership during that time.
Yes in July it improved, and if it stays this low and the relationship with ridership is valid, one would predict ridership to rebound.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Don't forget the TTC reports are 2015 and prior. The unemployment numbers are 2016, up to June.

 

[muller877]

York Region uses private companies. They get subsidized to the tune of $4.44 per rider, compared with the TTC at 89¢.

Subsidization is not a good comparison when you are looking at comparisons. Private companies generally get paid on a cost per km or cost per km per user.

Think of a same length bus route. On average Toronto would have 50 riders per bus each paying $3 ($150 in total) plus $1 (0.89 I know but for simplicity) x 50 ($50 in total) of subsidy. Total revenue is $200.
Then you have a York bus. They only have 20 riders x $4 ($60 in total) plus $5 of subsidy for those 20 riders ($100 in total). Total revenue is $160.

If everything else is the same I'd rather operate the Toronto bus (even with a lower subsidy per rider)

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Free transit is an interesting idea. What is the source of revenue to pay for the transit?

The same as free health care, free library cards and free garbage pickup?

It may not be practical but every government service with no user fee is a choice about taxes and how they're spent.

And, yeah, privatization has nothing to do with that subsidy differences between YRT and TTC or any other agencies. They're operating in entirely different circumstances so it's apple to oranges. I see TTC's low subsidy as an embarrassment, not something to be admired but others differ. Just look at Tory's recent comments on the budget. They give TTC as little as they can. Double the per rider subsidy, they'd still be 1/2 of YRT and much closer to maintaining state of good repair. The low subsidy is a choice.

 

[Hopkins123]

I totally disagree with free transit. It's a public service but that doesn't mean it should be totally free.

If Toronto was to get really serious about transit it would tax itself appropriately and use those taxes to dramatically reduce fares.
Just look at the UPX. 2000 passengers a day $27 fare and now 7000 with $12 fares with no increase in service. In other words the system is making more now with lower fares.

Toronto should adopt the Montreal example of offering heavily subsidized fares on a means-tested basis. Ergo, all people who are low-income, including everybody on OW and ODSP, should only be paying 50% or less of a regular fare or monthly pass.

 

[rbt]

Toronto should adopt the Montreal example of offering heavily subsidized fares on a means-tested basis. Ergo, all people who are low-income, including everybody on OW and ODSP, should only be paying 50% or less of a regular fare or monthly pass.

The most recent trend is a Basic Income structure. Instead of hundreds of different programs discounting specific items, they government pools all those moneys into a topping up a persons income when they file income taxes (kinda like GST rebate deposits only larger).

It makes quite a bit of sense from an administrative overhead perspective.

 

[muller877]

Toronto should adopt the Montreal example of offering heavily subsidized fares on a means-tested basis. Ergo, all people who are low-income, including everybody on OW and ODSP, should only be paying 50% or less of a regular fare or monthly pass.

STM in Montreal includes interest cost in their financials....so when you look at subsidies it's not an apple to apple comparison.
http://www.stm.info/en/about/financial_and_corporate_information/budget-and-reports/reports

Bot totally agree. The senior and student subsidies should be made into a means-tested subsidy to subsidize those in poverty (but not at the poverty level which some think tanks use for their own self interest like the low income cutoff...a real poverty level).

But of course we have to figure out if transit was included in the metric for pricing welfare or for the pricing for low income housing outside of downtown Toronto...we don't want to subsidize certain people twice while others do not receive any funding.

 

[ssiguy2]

In BC people on Disability Assistance only pay a flat $50/year for their unlimited bus pass on any system in the province.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Construction of the McNicoll Garage is “allegedly” to start construction in 2017, that’s next year. The garage should go operational by 2020. From link.

Why is the city and the TTC building for an expansion of bus services? Building a new garage means an increase, not a reduction, in TTC services.

In the 2011 census, it was said that Toronto had a population of 2,615,060. (With the surrounding 905 cities growing even more, and supplying TTC riders, who get a subsidy from Toronto property tax payers.) Does Tory and his clique think that the 2016 census will show that Toronto (and surrounding cities) will have a population decrease, hence the demand for a cut in services? Maybe we should ask Tory for the next winning lottery numbers?

 

[nrb]

It's very bizarre. The city is essentially refusing to fund new, planned, operating expenses, such as the spadina extension.

 

[aquateam]

I dunno, I think it is possible to decrease subsidy and increase service. If you threw down bus lanes on every major arterial and let bus drivers remotely control the signal timings you could speed up service significantly and reduce your rush hour fleet requirements. Somehow I don't think John Tory would be too happy with those changes though.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I dunno, I think it is possible to decrease subsidy and increase service. If you threw down bus lanes on every major arterial and let bus drivers remotely control the signal timings you could speed up service significantly and reduce your rush hour fleet requirements. Somehow I don't think John Tory would be too happy with those changes though.

When bus lanes were installed on Pape Avenue in the 70s, they increased route efficiency so much that the investment immediately paid for itself, and substantially reduced route operating costs.

 

[ssiguy2]

Also when buses come very frequently, it is much cheaper to run {in labour, fuel, and maintenance} 2 articulated buses than 3 regular ones even though their capacity is the same.

 

[doady]

Also when buses come very frequently, it is much cheaper to run {in labour, fuel, and maintenance} 2 articulated buses than 3 regular ones even though their capacity is the same.

I live in Mississauga which has used articulated buses for decades and they are troubled by high maintenance costs.

And in terms of operation, the lower frequency means more people waiting at stops, loadings times are longer, so bus are slower or fall behind schedule easier, which lowers the frequency and capacity of the route or increases the operating cost to maintain the same frequency and capacity. Buses may be longer, but still just one door for boarding.

Articulated buses also cannot operate when it's snowing heavily. They get stuck in the snow very easily as Ottawa learned the hard way. I have personally been forced off articulated buses because they got stuck in the snow. But Mississauga Transit just keeps them in the garage now when it's snowing.

So based on my experience, I think articulated buses should never be used except for limited stop routes, especially with all-door boarding scheme. But this is still Canada, this is Toronto, it still snows, so you can't have a fleet with too many articulated buses or there could be shortage of buses when there is snow on the roads.