New Transit Funding Sources

[Adjei]

I appreciate the link. Interesting reading for sure, but the situation today is very different as labour costs really are preventing expansion. The TTC can continue to run its expensive system, but let other players build additions on condition of interoperability. The New York subway system was built by multiple players.

This is delusional thinking. Are there private companies building subway lines in New York today. Show me all these companies who will be willing to build us billion dollar subways for free if we let them operate it.

 

[ssiguy2]

This whole conversation seems a bit utopian. Toronto could raise hundreds of millions for the TTC and drop fares to $1 if it felt like it but it doesn't feel like it. Toronto refuses to tax itself appropriately to provide the services it needs and instead of acknowledging that reality it simply blames other levels of government for it's own political ineptitudes.

It makes for great politics but hurts the city. Toronto is forever glaring out the window looking for a savior because it refuses to look for it's true savior.......the mirror.

 

[Euphoria]

It's all about labour costs and collective agreements. Not to harken back to the Ford days, but as with garbage collection, sometimes the only way to rein in spending is to start over with different providers. The TTC is hamstrung by labour costs. None of those costs will be reduced because those benefits won't be clawed back and its labour force won't shrink. The TTC is forever. I find it amazing though, how the private sector is able to turn a profit where government can't. They're better able to squeeze suppliers of equipment such as boring machines and to hold contractors to project map timelines. I'll bet that with lower labour costs they'd rake it in at the same fare levels as the TTC. As with the underground toll highway/subway idea, put it out to tender and see what comes back. They'll encamp at the gates of city hall.

 

[nrb]

It's all about labour costs and collective agreements. Not to harken back to the Ford days, but as with garbage collection, sometimes the only way to rein in spending is to start over with different providers. The TTC is hamstrung by labour costs. None of those costs will be reduced because those benefits won't be clawed back and its labour force won't shrink. The TTC is forever. I find it amazing though, how the private sector is able to turn a profit where government can't. They're better able to squeeze suppliers of equipment such as boring machines and to hold contractors to project map timelines. I'll bet that with lower labour costs they'd rake it in at the same fare levels as the TTC. As with the underground toll highway/subway idea, put it out to tender and see what comes back. They'll encamp at the gates of city hall.

You're reducing many very complex issues into a simplistic political statement about paying workers less. Why is that your primary concern? Do you have any proof at all that labour costs at the TTC are higher than other transit agencies, or is this simply your own opinion?

 

[W. K. Lis]

John Tory wants efficiency?

1. Shut down the Line 4 Sheppard subway
2. Cancel the Line 2 Bloor-Danforth subway extension to the Scarborough Town Centre

No? We showed you what was inefficient. Why don’t you listen to us, John?

 

[Euphoria]

I'm not suggesting paying TTC workers less. I say tie a bow around the TTC and don't do any major transit expansions through it, because you're locked into their collective agreements, which I'm sure are arguably fair towards the workers who've given their working lives to the Commish. I'd simply say, if you want new transit that won't bankrupt the city, let the private sector build it and bear the risk. They can manage efficiencies and determine the fares. I bet that at around $3.25 per adult fare, other owner/operators would find a way to turn a profit without requiring subsidies. Let's at least put it out to tender. I shouldn't have to explain, after multiple posts indicating that three quarters of transit costs are wages and benefits, that a century old agency that has become too big to fail and impossible to rein in, must be contained like a ferocious dragon. And yes, a fresh new organization separate from the TTC wouldn't be as top heavy with wages and benefits.

 

[sixrings]

I'm not suggesting paying TTC workers less. I say tie a bow around the TTC and don't do any major transit expansions through it, because you're locked into their collective agreements, which I'm sure are arguably fair towards the workers who've given their working lives to the Commish. I'd simply say, if you want new transit that won't bankrupt the city, let the private sector build it and bear the risk. They can manage efficiencies and determine the fares. I bet that at around $3.25 per adult fare, other owner/operators would find a way to turn a profit without requiring subsidies. Let's at least put it out to tender. I shouldn't have to explain, after multiple posts indicating that three quarters of transit costs are wages and benefits, that a century old agency that has become too big to fail and impossible to rein in, must be contained like a ferocious dragon. And yes, a fresh new organization separate from the TTC wouldn't be as top heavy with wages and benefits.

from the guy who wants to spend billions making underground highways everywhere.

 

[nrb]

I'm not suggesting paying TTC workers less. I say tie a bow around the TTC and don't do any major transit expansions through it, because you're locked into their collective agreements, which I'm sure are arguably fair towards the workers who've given their working lives to the Commish. I'd simply say, if you want new transit that won't bankrupt the city, let the private sector build it and bear the risk. They can manage efficiencies and determine the fares. I bet that at around $3.25 per adult fare, other owner/operators would find a way to turn a profit without requiring subsidies. Let's at least put it out to tender. I shouldn't have to explain, after multiple posts indicating that three quarters of transit costs are wages and benefits, that a century old agency that has become too big to fail and impossible to rein in, must be contained like a ferocious dragon. And yes, a fresh new organization separate from the TTC wouldn't be as top heavy with wages and benefits.

So no, you don't.

 

[Euphoria]

from the guy who wants to spend billions making underground highways everywhere.

No, I don't want to spend a dime of taxpayer money on any of these things.

 

[sixrings]

If

No, I don't want to spend a dime of taxpayer money on any of these things.

If private companies though it was possible to make money off your proposals they would be knocking down government doors. They haven't with ford and they are not with tory

 

[Euphoria]

Okay nrb, I watched my father work in the auto industry for decades where leaner Japanese, and later Korean, companies stole the farm from GM and Ford because dysfunctional unions cannibalized their own companies exacting outrageous gold-plated benefits. I remember the stories of GM employees completing their quotas in a couple of hours of an 8-hour shift then taking off for the day. I'm not suggesting the TTC has degenerated to that, but an aging, powerful organization like the TTC is now basically collapsing under the weight of its legacy. We need other players without legacies in the mix. I'm not suggesting dismantling the TTC. Are you kidding? The leftists on here would lynch me, which is pretty much everyone.

 

[muller877]

It's all about labour costs and collective agreements. Not to harken back to the Ford days, but as with garbage collection, sometimes the only way to rein in spending is to start over with different providers. The TTC is hamstrung by labour costs. None of those costs will be reduced because those benefits won't be clawed back and its labour force won't shrink. The TTC is forever. I find it amazing though, how the private sector is able to turn a profit where government can't. They're better able to squeeze suppliers of equipment such as boring machines and to hold contractors to project map timelines. I'll bet that with lower labour costs they'd rake it in at the same fare levels as the TTC. As with the underground toll highway/subway idea, put it out to tender and see what comes back. They'll encamp at the gates of city hall.

You're reducing many very complex issues into a simplistic political statement about paying workers less. Why is that your primary concern? Do you have any proof at all that labour costs at the TTC are higher than other transit agencies, or is this simply your own opinion?

You want proof. A 24-48% reduction in the long-term cost. For the TTC it means $500,000,000 of savings over time (1/2 billion!!!!) a year
http://reason.org/files/0fb4b4c2a077ddeda22fbae1f5990f3c.pdf

the above example was done without layoffs (slowly replacing service as the employees retired)

A 7-1 satisfaction on the performance of a private company over public. (i.e. better service)

Similar benefits have been seen in LA, Denver, San Diego. All with similar cost savings and improved customer satisfaction. North America has extensive experience with transitioning public to private operations of bus services including GO Transit. This is not new nor rocket science. Toronto is just 20 years late to the game.

(and these results were reviewed by 3rd parties...if you have a contrarian view please show proof and not just question it!)

 

[nrb]

Okay nrb, I watched my father work in the auto industry for decades where leaner Japanese, and later Korean, companies stole the farm from GM and Ford because dysfunctional unions cannibalized their own companies exacting outrageous gold-plated benefits. I remember the stories of GM employees completing their quotas in a couple of hours of an 8-hour shift then taking off for the day. I'm not suggesting the TTC has degenerated to that, but an aging, powerful organization like the TTC is now basically collapsing under the weight of its legacy. We need other players without legacies in the mix. I'm not suggesting dismantling the TTC. Are you kidding? The leftists on here would lynch me, which is pretty much everyone.

Err, okay. So you're extrapolating a totally different cirumstance and industry and applying it to the ttc to satisfy your own personal bias, and you have no evidence that they are in any way related, nor are you able to show any facts about the ttc being having a higher proportion of labour costs or lower productivity to comparable agencies, or anything at all.

 

[muller877]

Err, okay. So you're extrapolating a totally different cirumstance and industry and applying it to the ttc to satisfy your own personal bias, and you have no evidence that they are in any way related, nor are you able to show any facts about the ttc being having a higher proportion of labour costs or lower productivity to comparable agencies, or anything at all.

You asked for proof...i gave proof. I gave facts...you have not. You will never be happy with the result unless it keeping a union. I did some research and did not find ANY analysis that showed public is cheaper than private. I think the smallest savings was around 12% for a very small transit authority. Once you hit economies of scale it's between 24% to 48% savings.

Please show me an agency that has investigated privatization of delivery of bus service and concluded it was cheaper to remain public. I will then compare labour costs, etc for an analytical response.

What I did the task force can do (after 6 months) if they have the political will. A study that costs $100-250k can then determine the exact savings.

 

[W. K. Lis]

From link:

There are some people, like Mayor Tory and other Councillors, who think Toronto is a SMALL city. They ignore the percentages but look at the small dollar amounts as the target that Toronto should aim for. Toronto (TTC) is already the least subsidized transit agency, but that is not enough for them.