Multiple Victims of Shooting in Scarborough

[Marko]

Many young, innocent black men and women have been killed over the years and not a peep from the "critics". But as soon as something big happens, guess who pops up to push their agenda.

To the critics. What do you do for your community? I'm in the trenches and do as much as I can for the disadvantaged. I have several friends who work with at risk teens. Guys like Max and Marko are so far removed from these communities and seem to regurgitate the same tired, bigoted rhetoric.

There are a small group of knuckleheads that are causing this problem...yet some here will shame an entire race of people...and that seems to be OK here.

Riiiight. You joined up 6 months ago, but somehow that qualifies you to comment on what my response has been to this problem "over the years". I have gone out of my way to explain it's NOT all black people, yet somehow I'm smearing an entire race.

You're absolutely right that it's a small number of people causing this problem, but that small number among our 6 million is disproportionately represented by a few small cultural groups. You want to throw more public resources at them so you can raise their kids right because they can't do it themselves - which sounds like you're more interested in propping up the support industry than solving any problems, because that would make you obsolete. You want to treat people like victims which gives them even further excuses to act like they do. There are many, many races and groups represented among the poor and disadvantaged, but the vast majority are able to stay away from guns and killing.

If you're soooo experienced "in the trenches" please tell us why this is so? Why don't more poor immigrants from Sri Lanka or Roma Gypsies take up arms? Why don't the 4th generation working poor fight over turf and respect? Why don't the poor among our Native population in Toronto fire off at each other at community barbecues?

You'll have no answers for these questions, of course, only diversions and insults against those who are willing to ask difficult questions.

 

[James]

This whole situation is a publicly sensitive subject but it can't be sugarcoated if we want to address the issues at its core. The media is always looking to discover the one "fix" and then demand that we throw tons of money at it, expecting the problems to disappear once they do. One big issue is that the government and the city can only do so much. Why is the government using taxpayer's money to solve a problem that starts at home? Anyone who says it doesn't begin in the family unit and these poor kids who are shooting each other are a victim of the environment that "we" have put them in is pure ignorant.

Yes, we can have community programs and neighborhood events and festivals, engage the neighborhood kids, give them a role model to follow but at the end of the day, you can't rely on these external factors alone in guiding your child. It's so easy to blame the system. It's a lot harder to take responsibility and blame oneself.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

James:

The media is always looking to discover the one "fix" and then demand that we throw tons of money at it, expecting the problems to disappear once they do.

Well, just as certain members of the public and those in power always think that the problems will disappear if a) we just lock them up and b) if they have a job. Really? I believe in using all the right tools to produce an optimal outcome - not just one tool or another because it fits our worldview. It wlll mean more resources to buttress families, support kids who doesn't - for whatever reason - strayed, be it jobs, training, rec programs; it will mean tougher enforcement of gun laws, it will mean locking up offenders longer, without parole, might be the suitable in some cases - and it will also mean rehabilation should be supported where possible.

Why is the government using taxpayer's money to solve a problem that starts at home? Anyone who says it doesn't begin in the family unit and these poor kids who are shooting each other are a victim of the environment that "we" have put them in is pure ignorant.

The family is one factor - not the factor. It has never prevented individuals from engaging in a life of crime. Besides, while the government can help with the situation at the family level, it cannot, at the end of the day, really legislate or dictate how parents teach or not teach their children. If the government doesn't use taxpayer's money to at least contain or limit the problem regardless of where it starts, the end cost to society will almost invariably be higher. Just look south of the border for the end result of a lassie faire approach.

AoD

 

[W. K. Lis]

Another bit of wisdom from Rob Ford. From The Star, at this link:

Rob Ford says best remedy for shootings is jobs

David Rider
Urban Affairs Bureau Chief

City councillors of all stripes say Toronto’s latest mass shooting underscores the need for special spending in some neighbourhoods, isolating the staunchly opposed Mayor Rob Ford.

Some councillors said Tuesday that city funding for recreation centres, youth outreach workers, job creation and more can make tragedies like the deadly Danzig St. shooting less likely.

In the wake of what is being called Toronto’s worst-ever incident of gun violence, Premier Dalton McGuinty invited Ford and Police Chief Bill Blair to discuss what help they need to prevent such “outrageous” shootings.

Ford decried the “disgusting act of senseless violence,” but stuck to his mantra that “the best social program around is a job.” He said he spoke to McGuinty, and will again, on “how we can work together to combat gang violence.” But it was clear he was speaking of tough-on-crime initiatives.

“We must use every legal means to make life for these thugs miserable, to put them behind bars, or to run them out of town,” Ford said in a statement. “We will not rest until being a gang member is a miserable, undesirable life.”

Councillor Adam Vaughan said, if Ford is not prepared to ask for financial help, council should talk directly to McGuinty, possibly at an emergency meeting before the next one scheduled for Oct. 2.

Vaughan wants council to reverse certain cuts in the 2012 austerity budget and consider investments to address “seething, if not raging despair in some of these neighbourhoods.”

The Star reported Sunday that $85 million in targeted funding for the city’s 13 so-called priority neighbourhoods — credited with helping reduce crime after 2005’s “summer of the gun” — is set to dry up over the next two years.

McGuinty told John Tory on Newstalk 1010 that perhaps the government should rethink allowing such funding to expire. But the premier, whose government has a $15 billion deficit this year, said any money used to spare the programs would have to come from cuts elsewhere in the budget.

Danzig St. is just outside the Kingston-Galloway priority neighbourhood, but the border is considered “porous,” a city spokeswoman said.

“The community is outraged; I’m outraged” by the shooting, said local councillor Ron Moeser. Priority designation can stigmatize, he said, but targeted spending, including rebuilding Heron Park recreation centre, helped quell gang activity in the early to mid-2000s, he said.

“We had a task force to engage the community and fight this back then, and it looks like we’re going to have to establish something again, given the scale of this shooting,” said Moeser (Ward 44, Scarborough East).

Michael Thompson, another Scarborough councillor and chair of the economic development committee, said he supports targeted community investments, even though some youths won’t seize the opportunities.

Ford, in comments and talking points distributed to allies, called the Danzig St. shooting and an earlier one at the Eaton Centre “a couple of isolated and unfortunate incidents” that “quick solutions” won’t remedy.

“Everyone has to move on and carry on with their life and the most important thing right now is that we apprehend the suspects and let the courts proceed as they may,” he told reporters.

Asked about priority neighbourhood funding, he said: “I think they should start investing in jobs. The bottom line is you or anyone else can come out there and invest and open up a business that creates jobs. That’s the best social program around, is a job.”

Last week the small-government advocate was the lone vote against all city community development grants. In June, he alone voted against accepting federal funds for a gang-prevention program that will cost the city nothing.

Rob Ford is no Bruce Wayne. What's he going do? Hire 2,000 (ex-)gang members for his family's Deco Labels business. Probably not, most likely there is not enough openings for one. Those young people would be untrained for another. They should be be in school and stay out of trouble for the other. But how can they stay out of trouble if he keeps shutting down help programs, libraries, and recreation venues.

Maybe he'll just hop into his Fordmobile with his sidekick, Doug The I Wonder, and hand out his business cards.

 

[Hipster Duck]

We will always shake our heads at the foolishness of youth forgetting how it actually was to be young. Young men of any kind are not, nor have they ever, nor will they ever be endowed with a great deal of empathy. That doesn't mean all young men are so void in empathy that they can fire into a crowd, but some will always be and almost any can be trained to. What stupid things did you do because of your lack of empathy as a young man? Do you remember how it was cool or the pride you felt when you were associated with something that was bad or socially non-conformist or against the law? That is how a young man thinks so to say how could these monsters do this is like admitting you don't understand yourself.

Best response.

it's a small number of people causing this problem, but that small number among our 6 million is disproportionately represented by a few small cultural groups. You want to throw more public resources at them so you can raise their kids right because they can't do it themselves - which sounds like you're more interested in propping up the support industry than solving any problems, because that would make you obsolete. You want to treat people like victims which gives them even further excuses to act like they do. There are many, many races and groups represented among the poor and disadvantaged, but the vast majority are able to stay away from guns and killing.

If you're soooo experienced "in the trenches" please tell us why this is so? Why don't more poor immigrants from Sri Lanka or Roma Gypsies take up arms? Why don't the 4th generation working poor fight over turf and respect? Why don't the poor among our Native population in Toronto fire off at each other at community barbecues?

You'll have no answers for these questions, of course, only diversions and insults against those who are willing to ask difficult questions.

Second best response.

I think our best shot at dealing with this problem is some combination of what Tricky says and what Marko says. We have to recognize that young men are rebellious and non-conformist and often jackasses (when I was 17 I was suspended from school for vandalizing property, today I advocate for a better public realm), and we also have to recognize that scratching away that thin veneer that allows young men to cross over into psychopathic territory where they have no shame in firing into a crowd of innocent bystanders is much more prevalent in the black community than in any other community, ethnic or otherwise. As Marko says, there are other groups of male youth that are subject to similar, or worse, levels of deprivation, fatherlessness and lack of opportunities/guidance, and they may take it out on themselves somehow (Aboriginal youth have a depressing level of teen suicide, for example), but they don't take out their anger in a form that jeopardizes the lives of bystanders. This is a problem in the black* community, and it is mostly up to the black community to deal with this.

*I even think it's more specific than the "black" community. Gun violence seems to plague Somali Canadians and Afro-Carribeans, but not, say, Nigerian Canadians or Ethiopian Canadians.

 

[Roots_Energize]

@ King east


Im looking to make contacts in the Ottawa community to form weekly meetings to share ideas, knowledge, to work with youth and more. It would be great to get a good group going on here and then to expand contacts /networks to Toronto, because we need to work as one. What happens in one place effects all of us.

 

[Roots_Energize]

Best response.



Second best response.

I think our best shot at dealing with this problem is some combination of what Tricky says and what Marko says. We have to recognize that young men are rebellious and non-conformist and often jackasses (when I was 17 I was suspended from school for vandalizing property, today I advocate for a better public realm), and we also have to recognize that scratching away that thin veneer that allows young men to cross over into psychopathic territory where they have no shame in firing into a crowd of innocent bystanders is much more prevalent in the black community than in any other community, ethnic or otherwise. As Marko says, there are other groups of male youth that are subject to similar, or worse, levels of deprivation, fatherlessness and lack of opportunities/guidance, and they may take it out on themselves somehow (Aboriginal youth have a depressing level of teen suicide, for example), but they don't take out their anger in a form that jeopardizes the lives of bystanders. This is a problem in the black* community, and it is mostly up to the black community to deal with this.

*I even think it's more specific than the "black" community. Gun violence seems to plague Somali Canadians and Afro-Carribeans, but not, say, Nigerian Canadians or Ethiopian Canadians.

I'm hearing you guys say that you dont see native people shooting and killing each other, really? i quess you have'nt really heard about the gang problem out in Winnipeg ,Edmonton, and Saskatoon area. Out west they have murder rates that are higher then Toronto but there is less black people out west, so how could this be so?

You guys are saying this is a "black problem" Yet Toronto is lower in crime then cities with less black people, does'nt make sense. I think that the murders in Toronto are more sensational ,cause in Canada guns are not apart of our everyday culture so its shocking, but people getting killed with a knife or other means is not so much front page news.

i'm just curious if you guys think there is such a thing as a white problem in the world?

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Riiiight. You joined up 6 months ago, but somehow that qualifies you to comment on what my response has been to this problem "over the years". I have gone out of my way to explain it's NOT all black people, yet somehow I'm smearing an entire race.

You're absolutely right that it's a small number of people causing this problem, but that small number among our 6 million is disproportionately represented by a few small cultural groups. You want to throw more public resources at them so you can raise their kids right because they can't do it themselves - which sounds like you're more interested in propping up the support industry than solving any problems, because that would make you obsolete. You want to treat people like victims which gives them even further excuses to act like they do. There are many, many races and groups represented among the poor and disadvantaged, but the vast majority are able to stay away from guns and killing.

If you're soooo experienced "in the trenches" please tell us why this is so? Why don't more poor immigrants from Sri Lanka or Roma Gypsies take up arms? Why don't the 4th generation working poor fight over turf and respect? Why don't the poor among our Native population in Toronto fire off at each other at community barbecues?

You'll have no answers for these questions, of course, only diversions and insults against those who are willing to ask difficult questions.

Where does it say anywhere that he wants move government money? That he wants to treat people like victims? All he's saying is that people (like you) only care now because it's in the front page news. To be honest, you don't whether, the poster is some welfare bum or whatnot, the man is volunteering, while you and me or sitting here on the internet whining. Because it's easier for you to point fingers and feel superior. Does that mean you are completely wrong? No. It's a fact that the majority of crimes commited in Toronto just like Detroit or Chicago, or even the great NYC , are committed by blacks. I am also black. I am tired of seeing people like me on the 6 pm news all the freaking time.

So why you are venting at the poster, and assigning nonsense like "you want more money" to him?

 

[Red October]

i'm just curious if you guys think there is such a thing as a white problem in the world?

Pretty much all of imperialism of the 1700s - mid-1900s was a white problem.

 

[Roots_Energize]

^^^ im talking about today, in current times. Its interesting that there "was" a white problem but there is no longer one?

 

[Roy G Biv]

I think two major factors determine what ethnic group ends up with gang problems.

1) The Drug Trade
- Gangs are formed as small drug-trade businesses. Whatever ethnicity controls the drug trade (depends on the drugs as well), that group will be prone to gang violence. Young people are recruited, and essentially inherit the "problem". In Vancouver, the Chinese and South Asians became the market leaders. In Toronto, obviously the Afro-Carribeans and Somalians are the market leaders, and will remain so unless something drastic happens.

2) Poverty
- Factor number 1 is further compounded by poverty. Poverty makes it far easier for the higher-ups to recruit younger "soldiers" into their gangs. These younger men do not have positive influences in their lives, and gangs are the most accessible source of prestige and income. It pains me when people, who are ignorant, naturally expect a 13 yr old boy with one parent to resist the offerings of a bunch of older, rich men who are big shots in their community. These men are glorified in black culture, which doesn't help the situation.

You have to make education and employment more accessible for these young boys. Community outreach programs are invaluable. It takes time, but when you can create role models for these kids, you can change the culture in their communities using a grass-roots strategy, as opposed to some delusional top-down one.

At the same time, the police need to make sure the drug-trade becomes less lucrative, and this doesn't mean busting into houses left, right and centre looking for guns and drugs. Antagonizing the community is counter-productive. They should have ears-and-eyes-on-the-street and go for the decision-makers.

We also need to recognize that gang-violence flares up and settles down based on turf wars and who's beefing with who. Many times, we don't have much control over these kinds of things, but we obssess over them anyways. If one evening, some king-pin decides he wants more territory, then you get a "summer of the gun"... Suddenly the police aren't doing their jobs etc... Another summer, the king-pins are happy with their finances etc, and suddenly the police ARE doing their jobs.

 

[Roy G Biv]

Where does it say anywhere that he wants move government money? That he wants to treat people like victims? All he's saying is that people (like you) only care now because it's in the front page news. To be honest, you don't whether, the poster is some welfare bum or whatnot, the man is volunteering, while you and me or sitting here on the internet whining. Because it's easier for you to point fingers and feel superior. Does that mean you are completely wrong? No. It's a fact that the majority of crimes commited in Toronto just like Detroit or Chicago, or even the great NYC , are committed by blacks. I am also black. I am tired of seeing people like me on the 6 pm news all the freaking time.

So why you are venting at the poster, and assigning nonsense like "you want more money" to him?

It's because he does not understand the situation and feels obliged to pontificate from his armchair because CP24 has decided to care about black people in the East end for the moment. It's the same folks who are taking to twitter and criticizing potential witnesses for not telling the police everything they know about the shootings.

 

[Roots_Energize]

More recent events like within my own life time i witnessed things like the columbine shooting, when white kids go crazy and shoot people in public places cause there depressed, its not really framed as a - white problem or - something that only white people are doing. No body is saying things like - oh the white community is this, or the white community is that. If a white kid goes to a public place and kills people cause he's depressed its called - " a crime" Often times an incident spawns copy cats where you have other white kids doing some random killing but its still considered " a crime" But when a crazy black person kills someone , it is often considered " a black crime" not a crime , but a black one, so every black person kinda feels like they have to take ownership over all crime. Like if your a peacefull productive black family , it is now your duty to help stop violence , while people are pointing the finger at you. Trust me , people will say ignorant things to you when they see a black face on the 6 oclock news. If your white you dont really feel the need or pressure to take ownership of someone elses crime - for example the majority of child pornography is created and distributed in the so called " white community "" but nobody would ever point the finger at the "white" collective. The peaceful responsible "white" person is disgusted by these crimes but does not feel any racial connection to them, because he feels like an individual, and treated as such.

 

[Roots_Energize]

I think two major factors determine what ethnic group ends up with gang problems.

1) The Drug Trade
- Gangs are formed as small drug-trade businesses. Whatever ethnicity controls the drug trade (depends on the drugs as well), that group will be prone to gang violence. Young people are recruited, and essentially inherit the "problem". In Vancouver, the Chinese and South Asians became the market leaders. In Toronto, obviously the Afro-Carribeans and Somalians are the market leaders, and will remain so unless something drastic happens.

2) Poverty
- Factor number 1 is further compounded by poverty. Poverty makes it far easier for the higher-ups to recruit younger "soldiers" into their gangs. These younger men do not have positive influences in their lives, and gangs are the most accessible source of prestige and income. It pains me when people, who are ignorant, naturally expect a 13 yr old boy with one parent to resist the offerings of a bunch of older, rich men who are big shots in their community. These men are glorified in black culture, which doesn't help the situation.

You have to make education and employment more accessible for these young boys. Community outreach programs are invaluable. It takes time, but when you can create role models for these kids, you can change the culture in their communities using a grass-roots strategy, as opposed to some delusional top-down one.

At the same time, the police need to make sure the drug-trade becomes less lucrative, and this doesn't mean busting into houses left, right and centre looking for guns and drugs. Antagonizing the community is counter-productive. They should have ears-and-eyes-on-the-street and go for the decision-makers.

We also need to recognize that gang-violence flares up and settles down based on turf wars and who's beefing with who. Many times, we don't have much control over these kinds of things, but we obssess over them anyways. If one evening, some king-pin decides he wants more territory, then you get a "summer of the gun"... Suddenly the police aren't doing their jobs etc... Another summer, the king-pins are happy with their finances etc, and suddenly the police ARE doing their jobs.

Good post!

Nice to see some thoughtful writing.


really it all boils down to that shady alternative economy we call the drug trade.

 

[Marko]

It's because he does not understand the situation and feels obliged to pontificate from his armchair because CP24 has decided to care about black people in the East end for the moment. It's the same folks who are taking to twitter and criticizing potential witnesses for not telling the police everything they know about the shootings.

I see someone thinks they sure THEY won the magical belief lottery, along with KingEast.

Look - I'm not claiming to be right. I'm offering my opinion and have to concede to denfromoakville that I jumped to conclusions about KingEast being part of the "industry" that feeds off the problem rather than solving it. It was the language he used that triggered my response, as it was very much like an ex-girlfriend of mine who was a social worker and used to make excuse after excuse as to why it was never someone's own responsibility for doing something wrong. If KingEast is genuinely volunteering then my hat is off to him for putting his efforts into something he feels he can help with. If, however, he works for a special interest agency, then my comments would have to stand.

I have volunteered in the past. I have lived in shitty neighborhoods and didn't grow up with money and got into some trouble myself when I was younger. My longest relationship was with a black woman (not the social worker) and she was the one who actually helped me formulate the kinds of opinions I am sharing here. She was sick and tired of the excuses constantly being made for people, of herself being perceived negatively because of the inability of others to pull their own weight in the world and look for the easy way out: ie: through dealing drugs for money, or living in the cheapest possible housing, or having 4 kids by 4 different guys and making babies who will make the same kinds of bad decisions in life that she herself made.

Any efforts by police or government agencies or social workers are there to clean up or fix problems that don't need to exist. The problems are largely self created. An education in this country is essentially free until the end of high school. Health care is provided. As shitty as the neighborhood is that you live in, you're not so desperately poor that you have to resort to crime, you do it because there is a culture built up that glorifies crime. These idiots shooting up public spaces aren't even doing it in the course of a crime like a robbery, they're doing it because someone dissed them, showed up on their turf or to provide payback for some previous feud/killing largely started by the aforementioned turf BS.

I lived and worked in the Caribbean for a year and never saw this kind of shit on the island I was on, but the very next island over it was widespread, simply because the culture existed to promote it - nothing more - and KingEast isn't going to affect change within that culture any more than I am. We're all outsiders, no matter how dirty we get our hands "in the trenches".