Move Toronto: The SOS Plan

[Juan_Lennon416]

It is beyond me how the councillor labelled by the Toronto Star as the most incompetent in Toronto, keeps getting re-elected year after year and then gets say on transit decisions which have significant impacts well beyond his own ward.

On his election sign it says Dr. Raymond Cho. Unfortunately in this ward, people drool when they see that. Based on that and the information I gathered regarding the 4 candidates trying to un-seat him, it looks as though he'll cruise to another easy victory

 

[Fresh Start]

I read somewhere that this is their main option once again.

Not side-by-side though. They want customers to walk to a platform area beyond the existing station for transfers. I'm starting to wonder whether converting the subway to LRT would not be better than to create artificial interchange points such as this? At least then perhaps the crosstown aspects of rapid transit along the Sheppard corridor can be retained.

In this shaky funding situation, my concern regarding Eglinton - and it applies to either subway or LRT - is that a portion of the route is built but it is never extended, so we end up with one more stubway.

I wonder if it is smarter to defer Eglinton until the dedicated stream of funding is created, if funding for the whole line cannot be guaranteed at this point.

No matter how shaky funding may be, subway expansion along Eglinton must be a top priority. If the Metropolitan Toronto Planning Board felt that it could have supported a subway in the 1960s when the surrounding population was several times smaller, it can more than support one today. York, Etobicoke and Malton customers are no less important than Scarborough and North York residents. Delaying it is the equivalent of doing nothing. As for it being a stubway, if that stubway any at all resembles this I think that most people would be satisfied:

 

[Justin10000]

No station at Jane, yet Dixon/27 needs one.

Ok.

 

[Fresh Start]

Yes, because Jane/Eglinton is in the middle of an undevelopable park, a good 10 minutes walk from the nearest residence. A station there would exist solely for the sake of transfers between the subway and the Jane bus. I chose to place a stop at Gabian Way instead because I can't fathom why the TTC would detour the 47 bus and cause an over 1300 m gap in-between stations along a much denser section of Eglinton. Rest assured Jane is not being forgotten. That thick dark blue line you see running along Jane and Weston Rd represents BRT. South of the Jane/Weston intersection, buses would feed into a tunnel which runs into the subway (with a midblock stop at Ray Ave). The idea thus is to split the Jane bus into two new routes with a Jane South bus taking over the Emmett section of route 32D. I figure that more commuters along Jane would desire to feed directly into the DRL/GO Transit interchange stn, rather than having to go one stop over east from Jane then have to transfer again.

And Dixon/427 does not have a stop. That'd be Carlingview/Dixon, an important airport area stop with hotels, restaurants, car rental and light industry centres surrounding it. It'd also be an important transfer point for the 58 bus should the need for that route to enter the airport fades post-subway. Highway 27 Stn is also relevant as a massive bus terminal could exist here with buses from Brampton, Malton, Rexdale and Woodbridge feeding into it; as well it would be the closest subway connection to Humber College and Woodbine Live. Closeby, there's also a number of conference and trade centres.

 

[EnviroTO]

I disagree with Fresh Start on many things but the sense of putting the transit corridor on Dixon west of Martin Grove is not one of them. Even Transit City is weak on its "locate close to the people" and "build urban avenues" agenda when it locates on Eglinton between Renforth and Martin Grove and on Silver Dart to the airport. That section of Eglinton and Silver Dart are completely undevelopable and Dixon is loaded with hotels, conference rooms, office buildings, and developable land. Does Transit City Group think they can turn the 401/427/27 interchange into an urban avenue?

 

[Second_in_pie]

All I can think of at the moment is a giant building wall above the 427 (short and long to let planes by,) but then I realized that isn't the urban avenue that TC advertises.

I don't get why everything has to be an avenue. Nothing around that area is going to be like an avenue. Honestly, transit will do basically nothing for that part of the city. Sure, a subway or LRT could help move people around, but it'll barely make a dent in the built structure and car use that comes from that big industrial area. It's all about city initiatives to change zoning and how things are built. You could make it better; much better. But it wouldn't be anything resembling an avenue.

 

[EnviroTO]

All I can think of at the moment is a giant building wall above the 427 (short and long to let planes by,) but then I realized that isn't the urban avenue that TC advertises.

Even a four storey building on Silver Dart would cause problems with flights. Nothing can be developed on much of the selected route past Martin Grove. It is a grand tour of hydro corridors and underpasses. They should charge extra and make it a civil engineering enthusiast ride.

 

[gweed123]

Even a four storey building on Silver Dart would cause problems with flights. Nothing can be developed on much of the selected route past Martin Grove. It is a grand tour of hydro corridors and underpasses. They should charge extra and make it a civil engineering enthusiast ride.

Very true, the 427/401 interchange nearly even rivals the Turcot interchange in Montreal (still one of the most amazing interchanges I have ever seen). Adding a subway and a BRT into that mix would make it even more of an engineering marvel, and in a weird twisted sense, sort of a tourist attraction (at least an attraction for engineering and planning nerds).

 

[Justin10000]

Yes, because Jane/Eglinton is in the middle of an undevelopable park, a good 10 minutes walk from the nearest residence. A station there would exist solely for the sake of transfers between the subway and the Jane bus. I chose to place a stop at Gabian Way instead because I can't fathom why the TTC would detour the 47 bus and cause an over 1300 m gap in-between stations along a much denser section of Eglinton. Rest assured Jane is not being forgotten. That thick dark blue line you see running along Jane and Weston Rd represents BRT. South of the Jane/Weston intersection, buses would feed into a tunnel which runs into the subway (with a midblock stop at Ray Ave). The idea thus is to split the Jane bus into two new routes with a Jane South bus taking over the Emmett section of route 32D. I figure that more commuters along Jane would desire to feed directly into the DRL/GO Transit interchange stn, rather than having to go one stop over east from Jane then have to transfer again.

And this is why a subway along Eglinton just does not make sense right now. Jane, and Eglinton is a major transfer point for riders going north, and south, and they are being relegated to having to detour to Mount Dennis to continue their trip. Makes little sense. Its OK, however to build a station at Caledonia,and Gabian Way, even though both roads are so close to each other, you run the risk of the station boxes overlapping! Building 1 station between Gabian Way, and Caledonia would work just fine. If there was a stop at Jane, the BRT could run all the way to Jane Station, giving passenger 2 choices of subway transfers.

And Dixon/427 does not have a stop. That'd be Carlingview/Dixon, an important airport area stop with hotels, restaurants, car rental and light industry centres surrounding it. It'd also be an important transfer point for the 58 bus should the need for that route to enter the airport fades post-subway. Highway 27 Stn is also relevant as a massive bus terminal could exist here with buses from Brampton, Malton, Rexdale and Woodbridge feeding into it; as well it would be the closest subway connection to Humber College and Woodbine Live. Closeby, there's also a number of conference and trade centres.

Sorry, I meant 27. I do not like making assumptions, but I imagine the majority of the hotel customers are business travelers, who are attending conventions at the nearby convention centres. Why would they waste time on a subway when they could just cab it? Just looking at google maps gives an indication, there isn't much there to justify a station. the Station would be a bigger folly than the 407 station.
And why would buses terminate there, when Terminal 1 seems to be working just fine at the moment? Hwy 27, isn't exactly close to anything of importance.

Well, It is fun to fantasize, I guess. But your fantasy line is going to make existing trips even more inconvenient for many riders.

 

[gweed123]

How is it a fantasy line when it has been proposed by the TTC in 2 of the 3 most recent transit plans?

And since when does having 1 station in doubtful location make the whole line 'not make sense'?

And yes, you are making assumptions, false assumptions. A lot of those conferences are also attended by people who live in Toronto. They are hosted out at the airport because convention space in this city is at a premium. Remember, those hotels and convention centres also require staff, and I'm pretty sure the staff don't fly in every day.

For the record though, I do think Jane deserves a station, mainly for local bus services, particularly Jane going south. BRT and DRL get routed into Mt. Dennis, local routes get routed into Jane station. Or you could always just combine the two stations and put the platform partway between both of them. There are other options besides 'there's no Jane station, this line doesn't make sense as a subway'.

 

[doady]

I disagree with Fresh Start on many things but the sense of putting the transit corridor on Dixon west of Martin Grove is not one of them. Even Transit City is weak on its "locate close to the people" and "build urban avenues" agenda when it locates on Eglinton between Renforth and Martin Grove and on Silver Dart to the airport. That section of Eglinton and Silver Dart are completely undevelopable and Dixon is loaded with hotels, conference rooms, office buildings, and developable land. Does Transit City Group think they can turn the 401/427/27 interchange into an urban avenue?

Dixon is developable, but not as residential because it is within the airport's operating area. So development potential is limited anyways. It makes more sense to route the Eglinton subway/LRT to Airport Corporate Centre and provide a direct connection with the Mississauga Transitway, and at the same time minimize the construction costs. The future BRT station at Renforth is already a location where eleven different transit routes converge and it will become an very important transit hub, so it makes sense for the Eglinton rapid transit to connect to this hub on the way to the Airport.

 

[Rainforest]

Not side-by-side though. They want customers to walk to a platform area beyond the existing station for transfers.

Side-by-side using only the existing Don Mills platform might cause operational delays. Both the subway and the LRT will have only one platform each, so if the train arrives and another train is sitting on the track, the arriving train has to wait in the tunnel.

Adding another platform and using two pairs of tracks would be very convenient, but probably way too expensive to build.

I'm starting to wonder whether converting the subway to LRT would not be better than to create artificial interchange points such as this? At least then perhaps the crosstown aspects of rapid transit along the Sheppard corridor can be retained.

Metrolinx examined that option in their Finch / Sheppard corridor study, and costed the subway-to-LRT conversion at $670 million. If this estimate is correct, the conversion does not make sense. For that kind of additional money, they could extend the subway to Warden and move the subway-LRT interchange there.

In terms of extending further west towards Downsview, it should be noted that about 1.5 km of Sheppard West between Yonge and West Don are too narrow for surface LRT. Whether subway or LRT, that part would have to be tunneled.

So, if it ever comes to extending the Sheppard route west of Yonge, extending the subway probably makes more sense, to create connectivity between Yonge line and Wilson yard.

 

[kEiThZ]

Metrolinx examined that option in their Finch / Sheppard corridor study, and costed the subway-to-LRT conversion at $670 million. If this estimate is correct, the conversion does not make sense. For that kind of additional money, they could extend the subway to Warden and move the subway-LRT interchange there.

I always wonder about this assessment and why it's deemed not to be worthwhile. Obviously, it would be great if the subway were to be extended to Warden. Except, that's not going to happen. If it isn't, is it not worthwhile to change over the technology and let Sheppard have one common mode end-to-end with all benefits commonality would bring? We'd basically have a northern version of the Eglinton LRT. I really don't support the mentality that we balkanize the corridor with different modes and then force transfers because we choose not to have commonality. Why should riders have to pay for boneheaded decisions by politicians to put up different modes on the same corridor?

 

[Rainforest]

I always wonder about this assessment and why it's deemed not to be worthwhile. Obviously, it would be great if the subway were to be extended to Warden. Except, that's not going to happen. If it isn't, is it not worthwhile to change over the technology and let Sheppard have one common mode end-to-end with all benefits commonality would bring? We'd basically have a northern version of the Eglinton LRT. I really don't support the mentality that we balkanize the corridor with different modes and then force transfers because we choose not to have commonality. Why should riders have to pay for boneheaded decisions by politicians to put up different modes on the same corridor?

They will pay for this decision anyway: either as riders, or as taxpayers.

Assuming that we have $670 million to convert Sheppard subway, and cannot use them to extend subway for political reasons - then, maybe we should use those funds for another route. That builds 10 km of surface LRT or 2 km of subway.

 

[EnviroTO]

Dixon is developable, but not as residential because it is within the airport's operating area. So development potential is limited anyways.

There are a slew of office buildings, conference centres, and hotels there already. Offices tend to have higher people per square foot than residential areas. Look at the office park at Attwell, the office building on Kelfield, offices on Skyway near Meridian, and on Campus Rd. The fact that the land cannot be used as residential reduces land prices and the existence of the airport and freeway network makes it an attractive location for offices. The transit line would make if even more sensible to build offices there.