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Moss Park / Queen & Sherbourne

There has been "revitalization" plans for poor and sketchy nabes such as Regent Park and Alexandra Park, but when is Moss Park's turn?

I am curious because Moss Park is better located than either of those areas. It is within walking distances to the Financial District (1300M), Toronto Eaton Centre/downtown Yonge (800M), as well as St Lawrence Market area (500M). It was said Moss Park is downtown Toronto's last prime real estate in despair. Sherbourne/Dundas and Sherbourne/Queen are probably the two worst looking intersection in downtown. Why is it so hard to change that? Councillors have mentioned the determination to make a difference, but years passed and nothing significant happened. All recent development are carefully located on the periphery (Modern at Richmond/Sherbourne, Pace at Jarvis/Dundas), and nothing is actually located in the Jarvis-Parliament-Queen-Dundas rectangle.

What's more interesting is, many side streets in the area are fine, or even nice. It is the main streets (Queen, Dundas, Sherbourne) that are miserable. I really wish the Regent Park project can happen in Moss Park as well.
 
JasonParis said:
Is Moss Park TCHC or private? If it is private, it's much harder to make a wholesale change.
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Its TCHC; I remember, for reasons I can't fathom the NDP in the early 90's bragging about the new lobbys they had put in there, (the all-glass, stick-out from the building configuration)
 
Moss Park has the pure "projects" look: massive proportions, no architectural detail and no relationship with the traditional urban fabric of the city. It'll probably be downtown's last example of this unfortunate style of housing from the 1960s.
 
As Northern Light said, it's mostly TCHC, though there are a couple of private rental buildings mixed in there as well, the highrises along the east side of Sherbourne, between Shuter and Dundas, for instance.
 
I'm not as familiar with the Don Mount, Alexandra Park and the Lawrence Heights projects, but I have been following the Regent Park revitalization. It strikes me that the main aspect of these revitalizations is the opportunity to leverage large under-developed sites and have new market housing pay for the replacement rent-geared-to-income housing and new community facilities. Although Regent Park had the Dickinson towers, it was a vast landholding mostly developed with townhomes and walk-ups. They could therefore increase the height and density to provide for the market housing without overshadowing nearby areas, while at the same time also develop low and mid rise components and enhanced public open space. Moss Park, in contrast, is all developed with towers. The towers are surrounded by under-utilized open space and surface parking, but I would imagine the base density is nonetheless much higher than it was at Regent Park (or even Alexandra Park and Lawrence Heights). I suspect a redeveloped Moss Park would need to be a lot taller and denser than Regent Park in order to maintain the same number of RGI units and provide enough market housing to pay the bills. I'm not saying it would be impossible - just a challenge (particularly in a City where many confuse the terms height and density with pestilence and destruction).

I don't know any of this for a fact. Just my theory. Correct me if I am wrong.
 
Skeezix said:
I'm not as familiar with the Don Mount, Alexandra Park and the Lawrence Heights projects, but I have been following the Regent Park revitalization. It strikes me that the main aspect of these revitalizations is the opportunity to leverage large under-developed sites and have new market housing pay for the replacement rent-geared-to-income housing and new community facilities. Although Regent Park had the Dickinson towers, it was a vast landholding mostly developed with townhomes and walk-ups. They could therefore increase the height and density to provide for the market housing without overshadowing nearby areas, while at the same time also develop low and mid rise components and enhanced public open space. Moss Park, in contrast, is all developed with towers. The towers are surrounded by under-utilized open space and surface parking, but I would imagine the base density is nonetheless much higher than it was at Regent Park (or even Alexandra Park and Lawrence Heights). I suspect a redeveloped Moss Park would need to be a lot taller and denser than Regent Park in order to maintain the same number of RGI units and provide enough market housing to pay the bills. I'm not saying it would be impossible - just a challenge (particularly in a City where many confuse the terms height and density with pestilence and destruction).

I don't know any of this for a fact. Just my theory. Correct me if I am wrong.
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The one factor you haven't taken into account is unit size. Those old towers usually have huge units compared to modern ones. The Dickinson towers you mentioned were mostly two floor two bedroom units. Nothing like that gets built today. A modern tower would probably raise density 50% as a straight up replacement at identical dimensions.
 
Jonny5 said:
The one factor you haven't taken into account is unit size. Those old towers usually have huge units compared to modern ones. The Dickinson towers you mentioned were mostly two floor two bedroom units. Nothing like that gets built today. A modern tower would probably raise density 50% as a straight up replacement at identical dimensions.
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When the City secures rental unit replacement, it secures unit sizes that are comparable to the ones being demolished. For Regent Park, the requirement was built into the Official Plan. Given how many families are in these Moss Park units, I doubt there is any political appetite to slash the sizes of the RGI units. There is room to tweek the numbers, no doubt, but not at anything close to 50%. Any redevelopment scheme should assume that replacement RGI units would occupy the same amount of GFA, or somewhat close to it, of the existing RGI units (including amenities). Not aware of any Dickinson-style two-storey units at Moss Park (although the loss of such units generated quite a bit of controversy on the Regent Park file, and almost resulted in more of those buildings being preserved than had been planned).
 
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The Black Irish (where the old Coffee Time which was briefly a Popeye's used to be) which has looked ready to open for a couple of months with no activity had a sign out today announcing a "sneak preview" next weekend.
 
toonderly said:
The Black Irish (where the old Coffee Time which was briefly a Popeye's used to be) which has looked ready to open for a couple of months with no activity had a sign out today announcing a "sneak preview" next weekend.
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Interesting... i grew concerned when their signs suggesting a May 20th opening came down the other week.
 
Advice

Hi All,

I'm a young professional new to Toronto and am looking to find a place plant my roots. I've found the discussion on this board quite helpful in trying to assess the livability of this neighbourhood for someone at my station in life. The place I'm considering is on George St, between Shuter and Dundas - so from what I can tell this on the Eastern edge of the Moss Park nabe, tucked in behind the Grand Hotel. The rent is somewhat reasonable and I can walk to so many great locations, including work -- making it a very appealing option. I don't have or come from a lot of money and have never been particularly bothered by some the unavoidable presences of lower income urban neighbourhoods, but obviously, safety is a primary concern. After a late night of the office, would I be comfortable walking home from the financial district in a suit?

Generally, I'm wondering if there is anyone out there that would be willing to share their views on what the neighbourhood is like in 2014. It appears progress is being made, and I find the idea of being a part of a vibrant neighbourhood undergoing positive change to be enticing. I hope I don't offend anyone with the question, but certain things you read online make it sound like I should avoid Moss Park like the plague. I share none of the pretentiousness that I suspect informs some of these views, but am nevertheless hopeful someone out their can share their experiences, good or bad.

Thanks very much.
 
exlibris said:
Hi All,

I'm a young professional new to Toronto and am looking to find a place plant my roots. I've found the discussion on this board quite helpful in trying to assess the livability of this neighbourhood for someone at my station in life. The place I'm considering is on George St, between Shuter and Dundas - so from what I can tell this on the Eastern edge of the Moss Park nabe, tucked in behind the Grand Hotel. The rent is somewhat reasonable and I can walk to so many great locations, including work -- making it a very appealing option. I don't have or come from a lot of money and have never been particularly bothered by some the unavoidable presences of lower income urban neighbourhoods, but obviously, safety is a primary concern. After a late night of the office, would I be comfortable walking home from the financial district in a suit?

Generally, I'm wondering if there is anyone out there that would be willing to share their views on what the neighbourhood is like in 2014. It appears progress is being made, and I find the idea of being a part of a vibrant neighbourhood undergoing positive change to be enticing. I hope I don't offend anyone with the question, but certain things you read online make it sound like I should avoid Moss Park like the plague. I share none of the pretentiousness that I suspect informs some of these views, but am nevertheless hopeful someone out their can share their experiences, good or bad.

Thanks very much.
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I'm also a young(ish) professional working downtown and I've lived in Moss Park for 4 years now (Milan St). Before this I was renting up in Cabbagetown for around 6 years, so I know the area well. I always get asked what it's like living here, and I usually reply along the lines "I've seen some weird shit, but I've never felt threatened".

Walking home in a suit shouldn't be a problem. If you're only going from the CBD to George, you're not going through the worst of it. Things can get dodgy on Sherborne between Queen and Dundas, and Queen from Jarvis to Parliament. Outside of there, people are moving rather than just hanging out. It's where the hangouts are that the trouble starts and ends, for the most part. Well, there and the alleyways. As comfortable as I am in the hood, when I'm walking in these places at night, I take my headphones off.

Overall, I bought a house here because it was the only area of downtown I could afford. I've not regretted it once.


EDIT: I should note, even the worst parts are fine. Things happen, but I don't think there's innocents involved too often, if you know what I mean. I just don't take my safety for granted as I would walking through Rosedale.
 
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I can echo Dilla's sentiment. I'm a young average sized male, and I've lived in St. Lawrence (south of this area) for over a year, but I regularly walk through Moss Park at night and have never felt threatened. I keep my headphones low and stay aware of my surroundings because of the reputation of the neighbourhood, but I haven't had any problems, or felt threatened at any point. I would move there without hesitation if the building had a good reputation.

Most likely the worst that will happen to you if you choose to live there, is people will look at you weird or judge you for living in an area with a "bad" reputation. Bad in Toronto is good in most other cities, and this area is steadily improving.
 
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I'm with the comments above. I work downtown and walk home along queen, past jarvis, sherbourne & parliament, towards the bridge. About 10 years ago I had a job in Vancouver where i would walk home through the downtown eastside at night and i get a lot of the same vibe here... you're just passing through and nobody wants any trouble. That all said, it's gotten better over time. There are more people doing what we're doing and more people on sidewalks is a very good thing, as far as feeling comfortable outside.

That said, if you have the option to leave things outside overnight, like a bike or a shovel on your front door step, don't.
 
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