Moose Rail (National Capital Region)

[kEiThZ]

MOOSE was never going to happen. However, what can happen is Ottawa setting up their own regional network. Considering all the railroad ROWs they have acquired (The Trillium Line was only 1 example) they can have a true world class network without the need to bury everything like a certain city... not mentioning any names.....

World class network to where? Look at where people live and work. Look at where the existing rail corridors run. You'll see the gap.

Ottawa has done a reasonable job building up the O-Train network. The city's taxpayers don't have an obligation to move people from Arnprior and Navan, anymore than Toronto taxpayers have an obligation to fund transit to Oakville and Barrie.

 

[micheal_can]

MOOSE was never going to happen. However, what can happen is Ottawa setting up their own regional network. Considering all the railroad ROWs they have acquired (The Trillium Line was only 1 example) they can have a true world class network without the need to bury everything like a certain city... not mentioning any names.....

In other words, Ottawa's GO network

World class network to where? Look at where people live and work. Look at where the existing rail corridors run. You'll see the gap.

Ottawa has done a reasonable job building up the O-Train network. The city's taxpayers don't have an obligation to move people from Arnprior and Navan, anymore than Toronto taxpayers have an obligation to fund transit to Oakville and Barrie.

But Ontario and Quebec do.

 

[kEiThZ]

But Ontario and Quebec do.

They do. But the people bitching about rail lines not being used to serve the far flung exurbs of Ottawa, are usually complaining about the City of Ottawa's plans. Not about the lack of provincial investment. I imagine, people in the 416, would be pretty steamed, if 905ers started demanding that all of GO be subsidized by 416 ratepayers. And this is on top of the fact that Ottawa has absolutely ridiculous city boundaries that cover communities that would never be served normally by the central city transit service, in most other jurisdictions.

 

[micheal_can]

They do. But the people bitching about rail lines not being used to serve the far flung exurbs of Ottawa, are usually complaining about the City of Ottawa's plans. Not about the lack of provincial investment. I imagine, people in the 416, would be pretty steamed, if 905ers started demanding that all of GO be subsidized by 416 ratepayers. And this is on top of the fact that Ottawa has absolutely ridiculous city boundaries that cover communities that would never be served normally by the central city transit service, in most other jurisdictions.

I feel that is more because people don't actually know what GO is or who pays for it.

 

[kEiThZ]

I feel that is more because people don't actually know what GO is or who pays for it.

It's literally in the name.

And I think most 416ers understand that they don't fund GO, which is all that is relevant to this analogy.

Let's not forget that MOOSE was actively trying to kill the Ottawa's O-Train system to get their regional rail idea going. So it's not some vague idea of exurbanites complaining about Ottawa's transit plans. This would be akin to trying to take over the TTC to serve GO's ridership in the 905, and then sticking the 416 with the bill.

 

[micheal_can]

It's literally in the name.

And I think most 416ers understand that they don't fund GO, which is all that is relevant to this analogy.

Let's not forget that MOOSE was actively trying to kill the Ottawa's O-Train system to get their regional rail idea going. So it's not some vague idea of exurbanites complaining about Ottawa's transit plans. This would be akin to trying to take over the TTC to serve GO's ridership in the 905, and then sticking the 416 with the bill.

GO - Most people wouldn't know that it is short for anything. And most 905ers would think they are paying the full cost of it with their ticket.

 

[Nomad_87]

World class network to where? Look at where people live and work. Look at where the existing rail corridors run. You'll see the gap.

Ottawa has done a reasonable job building up the O-Train network. The city's taxpayers don't have an obligation to move people from Arnprior and Navan, anymore than Toronto taxpayers have an obligation to fund transit to Oakville and Barrie.

Should have made myself more clear, and maybe "Regional Rail" wasn't the greatest term. I am not referring to a GO style network with 12 car bilevel behemoths. I am more referring to more Trillium Line style services (which yes, is technically considered regional rail) to places like Kanata, Nepean, Stittsville, Barrhaven, Orleans, etc. While yes, some like the one to Fitzroy are useless for transit. There are certainly many where they would make good transit lines.

 

[kEiThZ]

Should have made myself more clear, and maybe "Regional Rail" wasn't the greatest term. I am not referring to a GO style network with 12 car bilevel behemoths. I am more referring to more Trillium Line style services (which yes, is technically considered regional rail) to places like Kanata, Nepean, Stittsville, Barrhaven, Orleans, etc. While yes, some like the one to Fitzroy are useless for transit. There are certainly many where they would make good transit lines.

1) This wouldn't be cheap. Just the existing Trillium Line Corridor would probably need double or even triple tracking in parts, to support this. Not to mention all the other work required on the branches. In all likelihood, this is a project that would cost nearly as much as the current O-Train network itself.

2) The generated ridership would be poor because at the end of the day, such a network drops you off at Bayview....3 km west of downtown. Why, for example, would somebody in Orleans take this, over a bus to their Stage 2 LRT station, which has a train getting them to the Rideau centre in half a hour?

It's a nice fantasy for railfans. But when you think of the cost, and how few people would actually use it, particularly outside commuting, the business case falls flat. And that was before Covid and the entire public service deciding it can mostly work from home and considering a future of only limited in-person work days.

 

[Nomad_87]

1) This wouldn't be cheap. Just the existing Trillium Line Corridor would probably need double or even triple tracking in parts, to support this. Not to mention all the other work required on the branches. In all likelihood, this is a project that would cost nearly as much as the current O-Train network itself.

2) The generated ridership would be poor because at the end of the day, such a network drops you off at Bayview....3 km west of downtown. Why, for example, would somebody in Orleans take this, over a bus to their Stage 2 LRT station, which has a train getting them to the Rideau centre in half a hour?

It's a nice fantasy for railfans. But when you think of the cost, and how few people would actually use it, particularly outside commuting, the business case falls flat. And that was before Covid and the entire public service deciding it can mostly work from home and considering a future of only limited in-person work days.

Um? I never said anything about using the Trillium Line corridor specifically. (which is getting double tracked anyways, it is shut down for the works) I am talking about more services in the same style as the Trillium line with similar frequency and similar rolling stock, the original was insanely cheap for a transit project in Canada and we should be trying to replicate that success. Not everything has to be centered to suburb-downtown transportation anyways, and in countries where public transit is usable it is used for far more than 9-5 office jobs. That is the biggest problem with GO, way too centered on a single stop and a single market.

 

[kEiThZ]

which is getting double tracked anyways, it is shut down for the works

It's getting a lot of passing tracks and a partial doubling, for the extension past Leitrim. It's not getting double tracked on the core from Bayview to South Keys that would be needed to support all those branched services.

the original was insanely cheap for a transit project in Canada and we should be trying to replicate that success.

The original project didn't require multiple tracks possible widening of the corridor trench and widening of a tunnel under the Rideau Canal. It was cheap because they matched the services to the capacity available. The type of services you envision, would require substantial upgrades to boost capacity. And that would not be cheap.

Not everything has to be centered to suburb-downtown transportation anyways, and in countries where public transit is usable it is used for far more than 9-5 office jobs.

I agree. But in a world of limited funding for public transit, investment has to go to projects which provide the best return. And a system which caters to cross-town trips from a bunch of highly car dependent suburbs isn't going to be high on the list. We're talking about a city which still has bus routes, inside the Greenbelt, that run on 30 minute headways, and a bus fleet that isn't even mostly hybrid. The O-Train may be decent, but in so many other ways, transit in Ottawa is a decade or more behind a lot of the GTA. They need to fix a lot of that first.

 

[Allandale25]

Not really on topic with how Moose wanted to use the bridge so maybe I should create a seperate thread for this project.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1547241450072596480

 

[micheal_can]

So, I am going to suggest a crazy idea that the province and city should look at and eventually do - reactivate the original Ottawa Union Station. I know someone out there will say:

But it is already in use . - When the renos are done and the Senate leave, it would be a good time to start the work.

But there are no tracks to it. - Dig tunnels for it.

If Ottawa really wants commuter rail to be successful, this station would be key.to its success.The Moose plan does not get a train downtown. This would. The good thing is, with the new Via rolling stock, it could easily come to here as well.

 

[CapitalSeven]

Oh stop. Not worth the expense, never going to happen. It's not implausibe that someday there could be a heavy rail tunnel shared by VIA and the Trillium line running east to west, but a tunnel and underground station just for intercity trains is absurd. The geology in that part of the city is notoriously unstable and the risk of another giant sinkhole pretty much guarantees no private company would undertake the risk of digging a tunnel in the sandbox around Rideau and Sussex.

 

[Urban Sky]

Oh stop. Not worth the expense, never going to happen. It's not implausibe that someday there could be a heavy rail tunnel shared by VIA and the Trillium line running east to west, but a tunnel and underground station just for intercity trains is absurd. The geology in that part of the city is notoriously unstable and the risk of another giant sinkhole pretty much guarantees no private company would undertake the risk of digging a tunnel in the sandbox around Rideau and Sussex.

Sometimes you just have to look at which user made a suggestion, to already suspect before even reading it that it probably defies all but the most rudimentary levels of common sense…

 

[ARG1]

Sometimes you just have to look at which user made a suggestion, to already suspect before even reading it that it probably defies all but the most rudimentary levels of common sense…

Even though @micheal_can was quite wrong about London and BRT, overall he's fine. No need to gaslight people over previous opinions, and we should take every post at face value.

There is nothing wrong with the idea of reactivating Union Station, in fact it has quite a lot of merits, the main one being that Tremblay Station is in quite an awful location. If Ottawa was to start running some diesel trains on old rail ROWs, forcing everyone to transfer to the existing O-Train Lines at Bayview, Mooney's Bay, Fallowfield, or Tremblay just to get downtown will get awkward real fast. As such, ideally at some point would need to build some downtown rail access, and building a cut and cover tunnel under Colonel By Drive that leads to a refurbished Union Station isn't an unreasonable idea. It would be far cheaper than say, building a downtown RER tunnel. Keep in mind I'm not talking about the next 10 years, this is a project Ottawa would tackle 30-40 years from now.