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Montréal Transit Developments

LOL. Every damn time. Like clockwork haha
On the one hand, your point is valid. On the other hand, we still have people coming here claiming that all this has been done in only 2 years, and claiming it's not true they've been planning the LRT south of Central for near 20 years - even though the 2007 report for LRT pretty much using this alignment, puts the start date of LRT studies on a new Champlain bridge and down A10 to A30 as 2000!

I grew up in Montreal long before I came to Toronto - I clearly remember the early 1980s proposals for the steel-wheel Line 3 metro, and the reports that this had originally been planned with the Orange and Green lines - with the later change to doing Line 4 (Yellow line) instead.

It's my ancient love of the Montreal metro, and long frustration with all the inaction since Mayor Drapeau left (the same time I did!) that creates my interest in this discussion - and I find the constant claims of how much better Montreal planning is hard to suffer, given how little has been achieved happened in the 33 years since then!

Gotta love TTC's branding of Crosstown and Finchwest as "Line 5 and Line 6" as if they are equivalent to Lines 1 and 2
I'd think the opposite of anything ... making it look like the equivalent of Line 3 and Line 4. I think a lot of Torontonians are going to be pleasantly surprised by Line 5 - especially as many (most?) won't be venturing east of Science Centre station. Just casually talking to people now and then, I've been surprised that many don't seem aware of the extent what is being built under Eglinton - though awareness seems to be growing.
 
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Montreal has colours, not numbers, so unless the number 3 has a corresponding colour... Whatever they were or were not thinking in 1961 is entirely irrelevant.
Sorry for the delay replying - I finally had the time to find a picture.

All the time I lived in Montreal, the Metro map in all the trains had line numbers. This one below dates from between 1984 when the Orange line extension to du College opened, and 1986 when the first Blue line stations opened. Note that even with construction well under way, Metro Édouard-Montpetit was still called Vincent-d'Indy.

If you recall, what they used to do, was add white dots onto the Metro maps, as new stations opened, rather than replacing the entire map. That means this map could actually be 1982 or earlier, originally having had black dots north of Plamadon. There was another version in the 1980s, as I remember being suprised by the font on this one when it was introduced - the preceding one was more conventional.

I keep looking for, but failing to find, earlier versions of this map, which show the Blue line heading to Montreal-Nord rather than Anjou. And of course there were later version of this map, with the White Line (Line 7) which went from Pie-IX to Montreal-Nord along part of the original Blue line alignment.
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(edit - found a better image. I'm unsure why the Deux-Montagnes commuter line is solid, as it was running. Perhaps part of this early 1980s proposal for the regional metro.)
 

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On the one hand, your point is valid. On the other hand, we still have people coming here claiming that all this has been done in only 2 years, and claiming it's not true they've been planning the LRT south of Central for near 20 years - even though the 2007 report for LRT pretty much using this alignment, puts the start date of LRT studies on a new Champlain bridge and down A10 to A30 as 2000!

I grew up in Montreal long before I came to Toronto - I clearly remember the early 1980s proposals for the steel-wheel Line 3 metro, and the reports that this had originally been planned with the Orange and Green lines - with the later change to doing Line 4 (Yellow line) instead.

It's my ancient love of the Montreal metro, and long frustration with all the inaction since Mayor Drapeau left (the same time I did!) that creates my interest in this discussion - and I find the constant claims of how much better Montreal planning is hard to suffer, given how little has been achieved happened in the 33 years since then!

I'd think the opposite of anything ... making it look like the equivalent of Line 3 and Line 4. I think a lot of Torontonians are going to be pleasantly surprised by Line 5 - especially as many (most?) won't be venturing east of Science Centre station. Just casually talking to people now and then, I've been surprised that many don't seem aware of the extent what is being built under Eglinton - though awareness seems to be growing.

Most of us know that Montréal was an economic basketcase for three decades, but the point is that what is being built in that city right now is bigger and better than what is being built in Toronto right now. Hopefully Doug Ford is ousted, Toronto secedes from the province and The Toronto Transit Party wins the first city-state election so that the DRL/Ontario Line (brought to you by Buck-a-Beer) with its jaw-dropping secret technology can be built. Then we'll talk about what Toronto is doing better than Montréal. With respect, I think that your stance is just too pro-TTC/GO and anti literally everywhere else to seem reasonable. You're on the forums boosting lines 5 and 6 as superior to the REM, which they aren't. You're talking up RER as if it's going anywhere fast, and even put the UPX up against the Canada Line.
I imagine you're probably an anglo who left MTL and never looked back because the PQ won and destroyed their own province, and you probably made the right decision at the time. In any case, objectively, at this current moment, not 20 years ago but right now, Montréal is doing transit better than Toronto.
 
Most of us know that Montréal was an economic basketcase for three decades, but the point is that what is being built in that city right now is bigger and better than what is being built in Toronto right now.
How? There's 30 km of LRT still under construction, in the last 5 years, another 47 km of rapid transit was opened. Meanwhile there are billions being spent on GO expansion, and 3 major subway extensions are opening, with the Hurontario LRT also about to be tendered.

Montreal is finally progressing, for the first time since Drapeau resigned. But I don't understand the need for Montrealers to exaggerate about it being "bigger and better"!

Can you explain this need for Quebeckers to exaggerate so much? Is it some kind of inferiority complex?

Is that related to all the racism there recently?
 
Can you explain this need for Quebeckers to exaggerate so much? Is it some kind of inferiority complex?

Is that related to all the racism there recently?
Wow, just wow. I'm not a Quebecker but that's just to another level of hate. You're the one exagerating Toronto's LRT lines as being rapid transit.

WTF is with that attidude anyways?
 
Wow, just wow. I'm not a Quebecker but that's just to another level of hate.
What hate? I was a Quebecker long before I was a Torontonian. But I've never understood the need to compare to Toronto.

You're the one exagerating Toronto's LRT lines as being rapid transit.
Metrolinx and TTC both identify LRT as rapid transit. And surely 15-minute RER service is rapid transit.

WTF is with that attidude anyways?
Dude - what has gender got to do with it? :)
 
From SSP- a backgrounder on the REM. Ultimately- keeping politicking out of decision making, pushing the project through cycles of optimization and piggy-backing onto larger infrastructural projects/utilizing existing infrastructures better. I bet you if they had to build a new tunnel through Mount Royal or a bridge across the St. Lawrence, REM would probably be a far less fantastic deal than it is now- credit to the Quebec Liberals.
d_jeffrey said:
Buses operating costs are about 0.99$ per km per user and trains full subsidy of about 1.21$ for the worse lines. It thus made financial sense to remove the entire Deux-Montagne line (even if it was the most profitable line).
This $1.21 figure is a telling example for how the CDPQ and their many supporters frame facts and figures: By just comparing it with the $0.72 per passenger-km subsidy the REM's promoters will receive, one could think that the REM transports passengers at 59.5% ($0.72 divided by $1.21) of the operating costs incurred by AMT/RTM/Exo's (it's difficult to keep track of all the name changes) commuter rail network, thus saving the taxpayer $0.49 ($1.21 minus $0.72) per passenger-km. For whatever reason, the EXO's Annual Reports no longer specify cost and revenue figures per line and we'll have to resort to the 2016 AMT Annual Report, which features the following tables:

Table 1: Performance indicators of AMT network (2016)
194584

Source: AMT 2016 Annual Report (p.43)
Note: the figures I will use in the following tables will be "Achalandage" (ridership), "Trajet (km)" (route length), "couts d'exploitation" (operating expenses) and "recettes usagers" (revenues).

To compare, the performance indicators provided by the EXO 2018 Annual Report only include the passenger counts, which hinders any cost comparison of the current commuter rail network with the future REM:

Table 2: Performance indicators indicators of Exo network (2018)
194586

Source: EXO 2018 Annual Report (p.31)


At this point, it is important to note that the REM network will only replace entirely one single line (the Deux-Montagne line), while it will truncate two other services (the Saint-Jerome and Mascouche lines, which will terminate at the projected A40 station, where passengers will be forced to transfer onto the REM for the final miles into downtown Montreal) and partly overlap with the catchment areas of the remaining EXO lines: Candiac, Mont-Saint-Hillaire and most importantly: Vaudreuil-Hudson.

Therefore, to determine whether it is more cost-effective for the taxpayer to transport the existing ridership on the Deux-Montagnes lines with the existing commuter rail service or with the REM, we need to somehow estimate a per-passenger-km figure for that line. Unfortunately, the AMT Annual Report does not provide any passenger mileage data, which means we'll need to get creative, but let's start by assuming that $1.21 is the per passenger-mile for the entire AMT network:

Table 3: Estimation of passenger-km figures by assuming per passenger-km subsidy of $1.21
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Compiled from: AMT 2016 Annual Report (p.43) with "Passenger-km" figures derived by using the $1.21 per passenger-km figure (Annual subsidy divided by per passenger-km subsidy equals annual passenger-kilometre count).
Note: line length provided for the Vaudreuil-Hudson line excludes the mileage between Vaudreuil and Hudson, as it is only served by one train per day.

However, dividing the passenger-km figures we derive for the various lines by their respective ridership counts yields improbably short average trip lengths (compare second-last column in table above with the table below: for instance, 2.0 km on the Deux-Montagnes line doesn't even cover half of the distance to the first station), if we look at the station spacing of the various routes:

Table 4: Distance between the downtown termini and the subsequent stations for the various commuter rail lines in Montreal
194589

Measured with: Google Earth

Given that there is only one line for which the estimated average trip length equals more than 1 station from its terminus, it becomes clear that the Mascouche line is the line with the worst per passenger-km figure (as also indicated by it having the lowest cost-recovery rate, as shown in Tables 1 and 3) and that that figure must be significantly smaller (than $1.21) for the other lines. If we assume that the average trip length as percentage of the respective line's route length of the Mascouche line is representative for all other lines, the per passenger-km subsidy on the Deux-Montagnes line decreases from $1.21 to $0.44 (i.e. by 64%), at which point transporting a single passenger on the Deux-Montagnes becomes pricier rather than cheaper with the REM (as we will see in more detail in Table 7):

Table 5: Estimation of passenger-km figures by assuming an average trip distance of 18.8% of total line length
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Compiled from: AMT 2016 Annual Report (p.43) with "Passenger-km" figures derived by using the $1.21 per passenger-km figure (Annual subsidy divided by per passenger-km subsidy equals annual passenger-kilometre count) for the Mascouche line and assuming the same ratio between average trip length and total line length as on the Mascouche line (i.e. 18.8%) on all other lines.
Note: line length provided for the Vaudreuil-Hudson line excludes the mileage between Vaudreuil and Hudson, as it is only served by one train per day.

However, the average trip length is still slightly inferior than the distance to Canora as the first station when traveling from Gare Centrale (5.6 km vs. 5.7 km). If we instead assume that the average distance travelled on the Mascouche line (i.e. 9.4 km) is representative for all other lines, the per passenger-km subsidy on the Deux-Montagnes line decreases even further (to $0.26, or less than one-quarter of the $1.21), at which point the REM's cost disadvantage (for the taxpayer) of transporting a single passenger on the Deux-Montagnes line increases even further:

Table 6: Estimation of passenger-km figures by assuming an average trip length of 9.4 km
194610

Compiled from: AMT 2016 Annual Report (p.43) with "Passenger-km" figures derived by assuming that 9.4 km (i.e. the average distance travelled on the Mascouche line, given the $1.21 per passenger-mile subsidy figure) is also the average distance travelled on all other lines.
Note: line length provided for the Vaudreuil-Hudson line excludes the mileage between Vaudreuil and Hudson, as it is only served by one train per day.


So, in summary, what effect do the difference "subsidy per passenger-km" figures have on the Deux-Montagnes line? Most obviously, a decrease of the AMT's figure of $1.21 to $0.26 turns the REM's per passenger-km cost advantage of $0.49 to a disadvantage of $0.46. More importantly, as (given that we know the total subsidy) a lower subsidy per passenger-km figure results in a higher passenger-km count (or average trip length figure), the REM's per passenger cost advantage of $1.00 turns into a disadvantage of $4.33. This means that rather than reducing the operating costs of transporting the current ridership by $7.6 million (or 40%), it increases it by $32.8 million (or a shocking 176%). Note that an average trip length of 9.43 brings you to just past the 3rd (of 11) stations when travelling from Gare Centrale towards Deux-Montagnes, which means that it is quite likely that the AMT's per passenger-km subsidy figure is even lower than $0.44, which would mean that the REM's cost disadvantage is even worse. But even at $0.26, these figures are disastrous enough for a mode (rail) which is usually characterised by economies of scale:

Table 7: Financial effect of the various per passenger-km subsidy figures on the REM's relative cost-effectiveness
194613

Compiled from: data provided or estimated in Tables 3, 5 and 6.


Having followed this project closely from its beginning, this selective and distorted use of facts and figures is very typical of the REM project and its promoters. Trying to justify an already obscene figure of $0.72 by waving around an even bigger figure ($1.21) to justify the removal of the most cost-effective commuter line, which has a much, much lower figure just demonstrates how an honest discussion about this project and its merits and costs is obscured. The fact that AMT/RMT/exo stopped publishing the figures one needs to somewhat compare the operating costs faced by the taxpayer with those of the current commuter rail network just at the time where the REM project was revealed (April 2016), just exemplifies how this project is shielded from any due diligence.
 
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Nearly 20 years ago as LRT - of course the origins of the project go back even earlier. [...]

I'm really amazed just how little knowledge there is about the history here. The alignment and station locations are virtually unchanged (including McGill and the Blue line transfer station at Vincent d'Indy - though of course without the Blue line)) from 1961 proposed steel-wheel Line C (aka Metro Line 3,) other than losing the Cartierville and the Ahuntsic stub. Have you not seen the famous picture of Jean Drapeau in 1961 standing in front of the map? See the 1961 station list here - https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligne_3_(métro_de_Montréal)/#Liste_des_stations_projetées

[...]

What is hilarious is some believe that Montreal dreamed up these plans in 2 years. LOL!
Your detailed accounts show beyond doubt that the overall planning period for the REM is by no means shorter than for comparable projects in Canada. The only stage which has been shortened dramatically is the period between when the project was first presented to the public (when the project was basically already designed and agreed upon by the political leaders involved - both of which is highly unusual for a Western country) and when the project contracts were awarded (and the project become set in stone), which happens to be the very period during which the public is consulted and accountability for the project is ensured. For every taxpayer or future user who has followed the hasty public consultations and how the (highly unfavourable) verdict got outright dismissed ("the BAPE is not the past"), any praise for "how fast things suddenly move in Montreal" sounds like cynical laughter.

How? There's 30 km of LRT still under construction, in the last 5 years, another 47 km of rapid transit was opened. Meanwhile there are billions being spent on GO expansion, and 3 major subway extensions are opening, with the Hurontario LRT also about to be tendered.
As a Montrealer, I envy Toronto for spending taxpayer money on projects which actually improve things rather than dismantling the only piece of passenger rail infrastructure which remotely resembles the state-of-the-art (25kV@60Hz AC electrification).

Montreal is finally progressing, for the first time since Drapeau resigned. But I don't understand the need for Montrealers to exaggerate about it being "bigger and better"!

Can you explain this need for Quebeckers to exaggerate so much? Is it some kind of inferiority complex?
Speak for yourself! I don't know many people who speak enthusiastically about the project. And one of the few remaining side-effects québecois nationalism is that people here don't have the compulsion to compare themselves with Toronto - because they might not feel like they are living in the same country as you do...

Is that related to all the racism there recently?
You know, the more I deal with Anglo ex-Montrealers like yourself, the less I feel compelled to object with the contempt with which many francophone Quebécois still regard them...
 
Of course, what Montreal was originally planning for 1982 back in 1967 was far more spectacular!

View attachment 194572

Montrealers daring to think and dream big is something that ought to be commended, not mocked.

And now in current year many things that long were once the thing of fantasy in Montreal are coming to past, whereas Toronto has all but given up on it's big lofty transit goals like Network 2011.

I don't whether it's their climatic conditions or geography that's the cause for the widespread support; but for some reason the notion of building subways in Montreal is nowhere near as controversial an issue as it is here, which is highly disappointing.
 
Montreal is finally progressing, for the first time since Drapeau resigned. But I don't understand the need for Montrealers to exaggerate about it being "bigger and better"!

Can you explain this need for Quebeckers to exaggerate so much? Is it some kind of inferiority complex?

Is that related to all the racism there recently?
Gold Nfitz, gold!

YOU'RE the only Montrealer/Quebecer on here who's exagerrating and acting the fool. You're practically the only Montrealer on here period. There are 2 or 3 who occasionally post reasoned updates and critiques of REM, Blue line, Pink line.. and then there's you! You, who has an instant online aneurysm anytime anyone posts anything (25 posts in 11 days!) and scours the internet for 60 year-old plans that went awry and protocols that haven't been followed for 30-40 years. I don't see the Montreal guys posting and boasting over Toronto's stack of crushed transit dreams. You're the only one who stoops to that level.

And racism? Really? No racism in Toronto?

That comment takes the cake.
 
You know, the more I deal with Anglo ex-Montrealers like yourself, the less I feel compelled to object with the contempt with which many francophone Quebécois still regard them...
Why are so many Quebeckers willing to turn a blind eye to the the government legislating such extreme and undeniable racism which primarily targets ethnic communities?

And racism? Really? No racism in Toronto?
Of course there's racism in Toronto - do you not read the newspapers?But I've seen no one proposing such extreme racists acts as banning Sikhs from wearing turbans - let alone passing legislation to suspend the constitution of our nation to suspend such fundamental human rights.

Meanwhile you are ignorant of the transit history in Montreal, trying to pretend they didn't start planning the LRT south of Central nearly 20 years ago - wasn't the 2007 report showing the current alignment enough for you?
 
Why are so many Quebeckers willing to turn a blind eye to the the government legislating such extreme and undeniable racism which primarily targets ethnic communities?

Of course there's racism in Toronto - do you not read the newspapers?But I've seen no one proposing such extreme racists acts as banning Sikhs from wearing turbans - let alone passing legislation to suspend the constitution of our nation to suspend such fundamental human rights.

Meanwhile you are ignorant of the transit history in Montreal, trying to pretend they didn't start planning the LRT south of Central nearly 20 years ago - wasn't the 2007 report showing the current alignment enough for you?

Oh look, that took 30 seconds! Having another fun-filled weekend are you?

Stick to the topic or open a racism thread.

They couldn't do the REM until the Champlain Bridge was completed. That happened on July 1, 2019. The REM will begin crossing it in 2021. Not bad.
 
They couldn't do the REM until the Champlain Bridge was completed. That happened on July 1, 2019. The REM will begin crossing it in 2021. Not bad.
The design included LRT from day 1 ... well from some day in 2000, 19 years ago. Not sure your point here. And not understanding your claim that the plan for LRT here isn't almost 20 years old.

Also saddened that some think that one must ignore the undeniably racist laws that are being passed to prevent people driving these trains from wearing turbans.
 
Wow, you really are bent. Were you sent to Toronto for treatment and you decided to stay?

No Champlain Bridge - no REM. Got it?

Since you prefer living in the past to the present, here's a poser.

Where are our shovels in the ground for the DRL (line 17), College Subway (line 24), St. Clair subway (line 32)?

109 years and still no progress?
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